A TCL First? '67 Rolls Royce project thread...
Compliments of ValveCoverGasket @ fourtitude.com
dont recall seeing one of these on here before... a rolls royce project thread!
a buddy and i picked this up locally from a fellow who saved it from the original owner's cousin's barn. car is from england, moved over to chicago sometime in the 70s from what we can tell (bumpers and mirrors were updated to then-current model parts). lived in portland for a majority of its life until it sat in a garage/storage for 15 years or so. then was moved over to idaho to the cousin's barn after the original owner passed away... has just 66k kms on it, and it shows
anyway, runs fine but doesnt move. so the trans is coming out for a rebuild. since its a RHD 67 its one of the last years they used the rolls royce 4spd auto (LHD 67s already had the GM turbo 400 trans)... so were dealing with a pretty rare tranny (~3000-4000 built from what i can tell)... still working on tracking down a local shop to go through it. luckily it shares lots of parts with late 40s and 50s GM hydramatics (the jetaway i beleive...) so were on the hunt for an antique GM trans guy.
anyhow, onto the pictures!
ill come back with some more pictures in a while once weve got the trans back in and all that... could be a bit as were balancing this with a few other projects, but everyone is excited to see it on the road. its amazing how many non-car people get excited about cars when you mention a rolls royce
plan is to get the trans back in, refinish the wood (lacquer is peeling in a few of the top bits from the sun, otherwise its all solid), clean up the engine bay a little bit and redo some of the black paint under the hood, then see where were at money/frustration wise and whether or not we want to sell it or store it somewhere.
10-07-12 updated photos, finally spending some time out of the shop!
black/white and color version of all the shots from our day out are in the album here...
some more pics from my roommates film pics that he scanned in
really dug the depth of field and colors in his shots
we had considered doing that... and i think the possibility still exists if we run into too much trouble with the 4spd, but the issue would be all of the linkage parts, shift column, gear indicator, etc as we have a RHD car, we'd need all of the later RHD GM400 linkage parts, as well as the column, gear indicator, etc
so it would be a matter of tracking down those parts from the UK... doable certainly, but if we have what we need to make a runner out of the trans its got, i think that would be easier and more original.
if we had a LHD car with the 4spd it would be much easier to get our hands on the appropriate swap parts, but still some leg work tracking down all the little bits and pieces.
aside from the rediculous brake/suspension hydro system (maybe ill post a screen shot of the pressure line routing later tonight ) everything seems pretty straight forward. lots of large bolts, surdy aluminum components, etc
electrically the harnesses (on these early cars anyway) are sort of a joke, its like cloth wrapped copper with real **** connectors. ours has been partially redone though and so far everything appears to work.
were pretty handy with wiring though so repairs shouldnt be a problem, and electrically theyre really no more complicated than your average 90s car with power accessories (has power mirrors, and power front seats, electronic shifter, etc). seems its more a battle against ****ty british wiring/connectors than it being complex
doors all close like a bank vault, the leather is amazing (though the color is slightly worn in some of the inner seams on the drivers seat). the wood work is insane and where it still remains - mostly on the vertical surfaces - the factory lacquer is incredibly rich.
rear leg room is awesome and this is a short wheel base example, and the seats are really comfortable. though to be honest ive spent more time under the car than in it
carpets are really plush. im really interested to see how quiet it ends up being on the road.
in addition to the front suspension being swapped out there are a number of new looking brake soft lines throughout the car. whoever took out the front leveling suspensionstill left in all of the old hydro valves and lines that used to run to it, so thatll be removed as part of the engine cleanup i think...
ill be sure to bug those guys when it comes time to start replacing other things. ive got an email in to crewe cutters already for some of the misc. stuff were missing under the hood, so well see what he comes back to me with on price/availability.
the trans appears to be a cadillac hydramatic copy... so weve found a local antique gm trans guy who comes highly recommended.
and i think for what we paid for it we can still break even when it comes time to sell
thats what i figured. i noticed fatsco sells all the rebuild soft parts, along side their antique gm stuff, and the trans guy has done a couple of these and seemed well versed in the various versions of GM licensed transmissions that RR used over the years
were currently thinking the internal seals let go from sitting too long. itll go into gear fine but wont move more than a couple inches after some serious reving...
PO was driving the car around a bit on the weekends (he claims to have put ~1000miles on it in the couple years or so that he owned it) then it slowly started to "fail to proceed" one afternoon as rolls would say, and he ended up limping it home.
ive heard the silver clouds are a bear to work on because of the x-frame... coworkers dad used to have one and i guess they did some maintenance to theirs and it was a pain to get to things under the car.
glad to see theres some RR folks on here, im sure ill be coming back asking some questions as we stumble through this
from what understand about the suspension, the early shadows were sold with leveling all around, then later ones moved to rear only (not sure what year they took away front leveling). there isnt a non leveling rear end that im aware of.
as for the chrome, i think that most of that stuff was either aluminum or some sort of stainless steel. we havent taken any of it off to be sure but it definitely seems solid and really good quality.
got word back from the trans guy last night - sounds like the flex plate is out of round, and blew up the front pump in the trans as well as the torque converter.
hunt is on now for some of these parts, so well see how spendy of an adventure this turns into.
also, got registered on the RROC forums, and working on hunting down some other odds and ends that it needs, and were getting closer to starting up the wood working soon
also have to say ive really been pretty let down by the rolls wrecking yards ive gotten a hold of so far.
no one seems to have the great little odds and ends that i would expect to find even at a german specific yard locally, engine hoses, washer bottles, random trim, etc... i dont know what the point of holding onto a whole car is if you arent willing/able to sell all of the little random bits and pieces off of it.
anyway... hoping that joining the RROC and their forum will allow access to some folks who are actually willing to part out cars, or have random parts laying around for sale.
quick update, been a couple months since weve done anything on this as weve been trying to track down transmissions... finally sourced a complete unit from what we were told was a running/driving car last week, its at the transmission shop now getting a once over. along the way weve managed to pick up another spare semi-complete 4spd for parts later (bringing our grand total up to 3 4spd RR transmissions... that has to be a record ).
hope to have some progress made within the next month or so after all of the transmissions come back from the shop
then its onto refinishing the wood, cleaning things up under the hood, and likely swapping on some reproduction early bumpers to make it look period correct again, should have it looking something like this after the bumper swap:
no modern v8 swaps...
original 60s shadows are getting hard to find, and swapping over the brake system to something non-rolls is much more trouble than id like to go through. would be a bit more tempting perhaps if the entire brake/suspension system wasnt tied into the engine, but
as for what weve spent so far...
we got the car for around $6000, havent bought anything yet as weve been waiting to hunt down a good trans before going any further. aside from ~$100 for an RROC membership and another $50 or so for factory service manuals and a RR Shadow enthusiasts handbook. i have a laundry list of new/used parts i need to hunt down but were likely targeting bumpers first as the big ticket items early on, and some cleanup parts under the hood. stuff like refinishing the wood and treating the leather, repainting under the hood and whatnot are all free, just time consuming.
no new shots yet, as its just been sitting in about the same state as what the first page showed.
ill take some more new pictures when i go to pick up the transmissions
thanks for the vote of confidence
we went to check it out on a bit of a whim, and wanted something to mix up our usual slew of european econobox projects. i think its succeeded in opening the eyes of everyone involved to an entirely different car community/culture, which i think was partially the goal.
and i think trying to keep this thing as true to original as possible (visually anyway) was always part of the plan.
heres a couple more shots i found... the front seat looks a lot worse in the photo, and the finish on the wood generally seems to look better than in real life
after '65 in the US, and after '67 everywhere else, they used the GM turbo transmissions... up until sometime in the 80s if memory serves. these were all 3spds, and theyre definitely the one to get.
otherwise they used a RR 4spd licensed from GM, but made by RR, thats the one weve got. it resembles an old GM hydra used in the 50s, but this one is a 4spd. the transmissions are rare, the parts are even more rare, and theyre relatively fragile.
we could have been back on the road for a couple hundred bucks if this were the GM turbo trans
has an electric shift box on it that actually runs the transmission (along with numerous levers and linkage bits for the kickdown, etc) that would need to be replaced with the later style, and as ours is a right hand drive car we would need basically an entire RHD parts car with the later trans... parts would include the column, gear indicator stuff, new electronic shift box, harness for the shift box, linkages on the carbs, transmission, driveshaft, shift box, new flex plate, etc etc
more trouble than its worth without having a RHD parts car... the 4spd trans are out there, theyre just rare
another quick update, got some good condition early bumpers headed our way, along with some other misc parts ive been working for a while to track down - namely a new intake boot!
we made the executive decision to have the good trans we got in a few weeks ago completely gone through. new cltuches, seals, etc. when we put this thing together we dont want to have to take it apart again for another 50 years
ill post some pictures of the new parts when we start getting stuff in
im running into some confusion with the mirrors that should have been on this car (before it was federalized)... ill have to take a couple pictures of what ive got and post them on RROC, as ive found i think 4 or 5 different variations of mirrors on these cars and im not sure whether they were all available and were picked by the owners as options or whether it was a year to year difference.
im headed out to the shop tonight but ill post pictures of the door mounted square crap that weve got, the holes that are left over on our window trim from the small round mirrors that i presume the car used to have... and then the couple of pictures ive found online of other early shadows and what they appear to have.
lots of confusion
my hope is to try to track down the round door mounted (and adjustable from the interior) ones ive managed to find pictures of online, but havent checked for prices or availability.
im certain that this car shipped with window frame mounted non adjustable mirrors, but someone added these interior adjustable square ones at some point - and whacked holes in the door trim (for the adjusters) and in the doors. so were hoping to use the holes that theyve made to mount the smaller round mirrors...
itll all make more sense with pictures i think
thats what im thinking as well... but now that weve got holes in the wood work and the doors, my thought is to at least attempt to reuse them, if i can get my hands on two of the round door mounted style.
anyway, onto the pictures!
heres us (both sides of the car are the same):
the original holes:
and i didnt take shots but theres a hole through each front door wood piece for the adjustment knob to poke through...
heres a RHD '67 with the fender mounted setup - which seems to follow most of the other RHD '67s ive seen
and finally heres a RHD '76 with a combo of both the window mounted and door mounted round mirrors:
like i said my hope is to find a left and right version of the round door mounted style that are adjustable from inside - as seen on the driver's side of the RHD '76, so that we can reuse the holes in the wood and doors that someone so kindly drilled in our car...
something like this guy:
(currently on ebay, description says euro spec '75)
im going to bug the brainiacs at RROC about this also, but figured this might make an interesting discussion here too
chrome bumpers shipped today... so pictures are on their way soon
yeah i think so, also getting our hands on non-drilled window frames is easy because thats the most common configuration - since the later more common cars had door mounted mirrors.
and according to the handful of folks whove responded apparently there were 4 different types of mirrors available in the 60s, each being available in either a single on the drivers side or a dual mirror configuration depending on how it was ordered. among those 4 types the door mounted adjustable round mirror was an option.
now to hunt down a pair!
all kinds of parts sitting at the shop now, including 3 bumpers
so far got the front bumper on loose to make adjustments to the fitment... need to take a couple of pictures as it looks 100% better already and we havent even swapped up the mirrors
after removing the old bumpers i found a couple places that need some touching up underneath but it should look great afterwards
couple shots of the front (havent had time to fit the rear)
keep in mind that its not really mounted but just finger tight... still need to adjust/center/level it
another month, another update
trans should be a couple weeks out now, most of the way reassembled and just waiting on a couple more odds and ends to get it buttoned up.
still need to track down an intake hose bracket, intake hose, and the battery cover for the trunk. over the last month or so ive managed to get the proper washer bottle, washer motor, and bottle bracket. also got a whole shifter assembly so i can replace the cracked shifter handle that weve got, and a new rear mirror to replace one of the flaking ones weve got...
next projects before the trans comes back are getting the bumpers all sorted out, hiding some of the wiring in the rear that the chrome rear bumper doesnt have provisions for, and touching up some of the paint up front behind the bumper.
i might have time to wrap up the bumpers this weekend, but i need a few dry days to finish painting the brackets.
theres a jag replacement that fits and is about 10x cheaper than the identical rolls branded fan clutch. the indy shop was probably smart enough to lead him toward the cheaper part
also... theres an early 90s turbo bentley for sale on RROC right now as well. those are MUCH more expensive to run. the guy on there has also posted his costs (dealer serviced with original bentley parts) and its approaching 6 figures as i recall... just since the late 90s. big money
theyre not mint but it fits the rest of the car's patina
just got word back from the trans shop that the rebuilt unit is ready, along with 2 other trans worth of spare parts - that will probably get sold on RROC when the time comes.
hoping to pick everything up friday afternoon and take some shots.
found a guy on RROC who will let me borrow a crank bolt socket so i can get runout on the flexplate, and use it while installing the trans.
if i can find enough time this should be wrapped up sooner rather than later
also poking around the car last weekend reminded me i probably need to order some random tuneup parts for when this hits the road - spark plugs, air filter, new plug wires.
thanks for reading and ill keep updating as we make more progress
and we managed to acquire a sizable collection of RHD 4spd stuff
working with alber's to get some tune up parts for its road debut - air filter looks like an old birds nest! hah and waiting on the crank sprocket tool - should be in this week, then the real work starts
plan at the moment is to get the flexplate runout checked out before we throw the trans back in this saturday... got the special tool from an RROC member for spinning the crank over via the pulley nut on the front, but that appears to be incredibly difficult as the nut is really shallow and hard to access.
im getting a flywheel turner today to try that out instead. incredible how nothing is straightforward on this car
fingers still crossed for some major progress this weekend.
weekend went much more smoothly than expected!
box full of various tuneup parts/filters from alber's showed up today... hoping to have everything under the car wrapped up tonight or tomorrow.
driveshaft, shift linkage and shift box still left to button up. then installing the tuneup stuff and topping off/checking fluids.
car appears to take ~3 gallons of trans fluid, and ~4 gallons of oil
ill take more pictures when we get it on the ground and start buttoning it up.
having it done it once, i think i could probably pull the trans in one of these again in a couple of days. helped a lot on the install this time having a spare bell housing to use as a roadmap of where all the various bolts went
also, 28 gallon gas tank. thats not going to play nicely with $4/gal gas
at any rate, planning on some videos of it running/driving, and the sure-to-be-embarassing first cruise around the parking lot.
well see if i can find a way to link those when they happen.
stay tuned! exciting things to come this week/weekend
couple more pictures from the past couple days
tuneup stuff - air filter, oil filter, stove pipes, wipers, spark plugs, etc
shes thirsty! this is what $180 worth of oil looks like
its ready to put back on the ground except for the dip stick tube on the trans. having issues getting that to seal up to the pan - which is making me suspect of how the trans was operated before, because it must have been leaking slowly out of there.
im gonna try tonight to get that to fit tight and seal up, otherwise this will be on hold through the weekend while i try to hunt down another pipe
and stops, and turns, and starts, etc
super ****ty iphone photo... more to come later this weekend
trans shifts pretty good, i need to double/triple check that weve got all the fluid we need in there as it takes (what seems to me anyway) a slightly more than normal amount of throttle to get it start rolling. after sitting overnight tonight ill take it for another quick cruise today (and get some better day time shots).
one of the brake warning lights is now on also, so i think i might have bumped a wire loose at some point because they were both off before. it stops without much drama (though everything happens slowly haha) so i assume both systems are working.
unfortunately the transmission is all mechanical linkages, and the brakes use a very interesting Citroen derived booster system with accumulators and whatnot, and multiple circuits. sadly i dont think we'll get off that easy
thinking now ill likely take it down to the trans shop at some point to get the bands adjusted and to have them swap the dip stick tube, so that he can get a chance to drive it and see what he thinks - maybe its just my lack of familiarity with these old school transmissions, and maybe it needs time to break in the new clutch and band stuff.
at any rate, seems to be working well enough to test drive so far.
onto the pictures from this weekend!
new stove pipes and fitting
semi-presentable engine shot now that its got a stock-looking intake hose. coil should be relocated soon
starting to get late on friday, wanted to take it for a spin
some more minor cleanup things to take care of, then the hood and grill are going back on.
thats it for now
more parts on order now to finish up the final drips from the motor, and hopefully sort out the registration/insurance paperwork soon so we can take it on some longer drives
just got off the phone with the transmission guy, sounds like he wants to see the car again to double check the band adjustment before we go too wild putting miles on it. so its first long trip from home will be for a quick checkup at the trans shop. will probably be a couple weeks before that happens as the paperwork for it is in oregon at the moment
stay tuned for more parts arrivals and updates
should be picking up some new exhaust for it this weekend to replace the blown out stuff weve got on there now.
new trans dipstick tube should be here any day, then its off to the trans shop for final adjustments
more pictures to come probably next week
and for the record, with a filter change the engine ended up taking about 2.75 gallons of oil.
although upon draining what was in there i discovered some buildup on the bottom of the pan (pan will be getting dropped and new gaskets put in when i have a minute to do that) so perhaps after the gunk is removed itll take a full 3 gallons
got some more random parts in this weekend (motor mounts and an oil pan seal set)
as well as relocated the coil to the proper position, picked up a new exhaust from a fellow RROC member across the border, and got in the new spark plug wire set. also sorted out the wiring to the automatic choke solenoid.
ive got an aston martin distributor cap on order that should help the new wires fit up, then the ignition system will be all sorted.
ill have pictures of the new exhaust and all that jazz later this week.
this weeks project is sorting out insurance and getting it all plated up properly to hit the street. goal is to have it at the trans shop before the end of the week
had my first failure to proceed this morning
just died out of nowhere on the freeway this morning on the way to the transmission shop. seems like fuel pump(s)... reading RROC it sounds like its not uncommon to have one pump fail and go unnoticed, until the second pump fails and produces an FTP (failure to proceed )
on the up side, i got a chance to take some really nice shots of it yesterday in the sun with the hood and grill installed.
stay tuned, the adventure continues
i havent been there myself but ive seen pictures in the RROC newsletter i think the local chapter had a meet there where they covered some maintenance and whatnot. looked interesting
i really wanted to just haul this thing to someplace thatll troubleshoot the fuel system when it died, but i guess ill grin and bear it.
itching to get back to the shop tonight and dig through whats wrong though, didnt have time today before work when the tow truck dropped it off
and as i mentioned it left me stranded (or as they say in rolls speak - failed to proceed) yesterday. i originally suspected the fuel pump, and after seeing some of the horrific shots on RROC of failed ones i feared the worst. turns out, our dual pump has been replaced with a different more common dual SU setup, and it all looks to be in very good shape.
and the issue looks to be a failed coil, so an aftermarket replacement will be sourced shortly
the lucas one thats on there looks like it might even be the original coil
couple fuel pump shots:
will have more photos later of ignition parts as those arrive
perhaps for the time being youd even let the non-original grill slide??
it matches the chrome bumpers much better in my opinion... in any case its low on the list at the mooment...
im still working out a suitable upgrade for the coil, and debating whether to stick with one that requires the ballast resistor, or to go to an internally resisted coil...
ill probably call albers tomorrow and see what they recommend and what an aftermarket replacement for the stock coil would run.
otherwise ill just pick something at random from the mallory catalog and see how that ruffles the feathers on RROC
this no-run issue has me kind of miffed...
first there was no spark, now there is spark... i think i could have had it going again today but the damn thing wet all the plugs during the troubleshooting - im reminded once again why carbs are a pain in the ass
anyway, the coil seems to check out when cold... but i suspect it got too hot last time and wouldnt fire. and it looks like its been thrown down a flight of concrete stairs, so its probably not a bad time to spend the $30 and get another one.
expecting a new coil and ballast resistor tonight to finish going through the ignition
and planning on resealing the oil pan and fininshing up the motor mounts this weekend.
more pictures to come
got a little bit of work done on the coil and ignition stuff over the weekend
was too lazy this weekend to tackle the motor mounts, though those should be relatively hassle free, just kind of a struggle to muscle them in there.
oil pan looks more involved than i originally though so im still doing some research on that one...
anyway, redid the wiring inside the distributor, mounted up the new coil, and figured out why the car died last week you can see the spots on the oil coil where it had started to weld itself to the housing and leak oil.
old and new wires for the distributor - couple of the originals were really starting to fray...
and new exhaust stuff (including the fun old-timey vband clamp )
ill have more shots of the actual exhaust work when we get to that - probably be later this month.
new plug wires coming in a couple days, then its off to the trans shop (for real this time haha)
ill see what i can do. we'll be cutting off the lower part of the y-pipe to fit the new section (since there isnt a break at the end of the y-pipe...
if im over at my buddy's while he's doing the exhaust ill see what i can do about getting a video w/ sound....
it sounds like a hotrod already at idle with the blownout stuff. gets a lot better on the highway because i dont think its turning much faster than idle at ~50-60mph.
should be much much quieter all around with the new exhaust
couple quick updates
car is at the trans shop as of this morning....
(sorry, pic is sideways... )
and it's got some new plug wires on it also
random collection of assorted wires that were on there before...
hoping for some good news soon from the trans shop
see if theyll trade you! gotta say though black isnt my favorite color on these things...
were still dealing with trans headaches unfortunately. the shop was closed for their summer holiday for a couple weeks but i got ahold of them last friday and we have some things to clear up this coming week.
what i assumed was just a band adjustment may turn out to be another trans pull (at their shop this time though).
time will tell... ill know more next week. got a few maintenance things thatd be easier to do with the trans out anyway, so maybe ill make them do those if theyre pulling it out. ill update the thread when i know.
we were really hoping to make it to a local RROC meet next weekend, but it looks like it wont happen. might go anyway any take pictures depending on whether theres time between other projects
in the mean time ive been keeping busy with some 4wd british aluminum v8 action
got a message from the trans shop today...
finally made it to the front of the line to get the rolls on the hoist tonight. should know more hopefully next week once the trans is out.
im going to show up there monday with a bag full of engine and trans mounts that i think theyll be doing when they reinstall all this stuff
another quick update
theyve got the trans out of the car (much quicker than we did, imagine that ) and have found what appears to be a missing alignment washer on the pump in question. repair is going to be on their dime, and the rest of the important bits will be checked while the trans is out.
no word yet on when the car will be back but im certain to receive a fully functioning adjusted transmission
...i just have to haul a few of the boxes of parts back down to them tomorrow morning so they can have what they need to finish it up again.
ill have more updates as i hear anything
another quick update from the trans guys:
trans is back in the car, everything is functioning as it should and they took it for a few drives to adjust things. he needs to spend a day or so adjusting throttle linkages, lowering the idle speed, and adjusting trans pressure to smooth out the shifts and get everything dialed.
i think were getting pretty close to being on the road again
will post pics/updates as i hear more from shop
called the trans shop to check in this morning.
after my last update i ended up stopping by in early october and there was some carb related tuning to be done to lower the idle speed, and adjust many of the linkages. i also told them not to rush as we werent in a huge hurry to drive the car in the winter.
at any rate, its sounding like theyve been able to drive it quite a bit over the last few weeks and do all of the needed adjustments. i guess its only a test drive or two away from being all set.
ill post more updates when i hear back from them again
car survived the ~30minute drive from the trans shop this afternoon
idle is super smooth and low, and the trans shifts and takes off great now. two big thumbs up to skagit transmission
tires were a bit low so it hunted a bit on the freeway, but it cruises at 60mph like no ones business!
next up is going to be the exhaust but that wont happen until thanksgiving weekend most likely. and then the oil pan and oil seal work underneath as well shortly after.
it also occured to me (on the cold rainy drive back) that it might not hurt to quickly slap some working blower motors in there as well... so i might do that in the coming months also. heat comes out of the vents when under way with the air forced in there... but the blowers have some bad bearings so its probably time to replace those.
ill keep this updated with pictures as we keep going and tearing stuff apart - nothing much to take pictures of now since it looks the same as it did last time
there was a knob that looks somewhat like the heater push/pull knobs under the vents, that was located just above my right foot... near the parking brake. moving it around while the car was in motion seemed to direct air blowing either ahead of my feet or toward my shins... but i guess it could always just be blowing outside air and not heated stuff. i assumed it would have been heated if the blower motor worked, but it sounds like thats not the case hah
ordered a bunch of brake parts this morning...
looks like we're well overdue (go figure) for a replacement of all of the soft lines, and a bleeding.
i went through the troubleshooting steps for the brake system and we have everything associated with the rear accumulator working/bleeding properly, including the calipers from what it looks like.
the front accumulator doesnt build pressure but it looks to be due to no (or very very little) output from the front pump. i cracked the feed line to the front pump last night and saw very little flow there as well so my first hunch is a hose issue - as i checked the filters earlier this summer.
so hopefully we can see some life out of the front accumulator and pump system after a hose swap and a fluid drain/bleeding!
ill also take this time to delete the rest of the front leveling suspension bits as there are some remaining hardlines and valves still lingering even though the car has been updated to the later style suspension.
hoping for more picture updates in a couple weeks
youre right. i remembering looking in there at some guys doing full on transmission rebuilds in their shops in the cloud forum, whereas it seems some of the shadow folks will balk at anything beyond fluid changes.
i dont really know what it would be either... but it is an interesting difference.
i have to say though there are a few guys in the shadow forum keeping the DIY flame burning, and theyve been really useful resources. its possible also that much of the useful conversation happens "behind closed doors" via PM rather than on the shadow forum, as there are a couple of rather grumpy older members on there who appear to not look too kindly on the newer folks...
going through quite a headache replacing the pan gasket but therell be plenty of good pictures coming in a few days as a result.
also looks like the gasket on the front cover is leaking a bit, along with a likely dribble out of the bottom of the front main. im looking into having that done elsewhere, as i dont really like dealing with that castle nut on the front crank. have some feelers out for quotes on that, but we'll see what they come back with.
going to clean the flametrap and breather as well just to be sure its not crankcase pressure, but judging by the condition of the old oil pan seal, its probably just from old age...
i might get ambitious enough to do it myself if the labor price is totally nuts... with the radiator out it may not be terribly difficult, but it seems things on this car have a way of making themselves tricky.
hopefully we can wrestle the oil pan out of the car tonight (its currently off, but stuck between various subframe and suspension bits).
if i cant get it out ill clean it and reseal where it sits
anyway, photos to come in a day or two of whats been going on so far.
speaking of which....
heres a fun one i found last night...
some more shots to tide you guys over... im doing my best to make a mundane soft line swap as interesting as possible
and thought id take a shot of this... to show everyone what sort of mess were trying to sort through here. an overview of the whole hydraulic system
fluid in the tank was clean, as i had seen before, but there was gunk on the bottom of the tank... and it looks like the filters were collapsed - common problem - which i hadnt noticed before. no problem though, weve got new ones.
shot of the old filters...
and all done
the biggest bunch of soft lines at the rear end... just for fun.
and a couple up front... going from the rat trap to the two front calipers - right before the system Ts off into the left and right corners (the blue and purple circuits, in that overview above)
and heres a shot of some of the old stuff getting thrown out.
ive still got a few more lines to replace, but theyre hooked to seized up hard lines in the rear. im gonna check tomorrow if i can have those made locally... if so, ill just break them and get them out so i can take them in to use as templates, and itll be almost wrapped up.
i got my bag of ball bearings in the mail friday, but havent had a chance to install them to block off the front suspension, and i didnt have a chance to rip out the rest of the front suspension stuff since i had to work saturday, but thats the next job when i get back out to the shop.
i think the end is in sight now, especially if i can have new hardlines made up to replace the couple of rusty/seized ones, thatll really make my day
AND, i have a big shiny surprise that should be here in a week or so that we got on ebay this morning.... so stay tuned... ill be really excited to bolt that on once it gets in.
our grill isnt "right". its in great shape, but isnt proper...
see if you can spot the difference
im beginning to think it may not be right for any bumper, after comparing a few shadow 1 and shadow 2 grills ive seen in person now... its possible that whoever did the swap to the rubber bumpers decided they wanted to mix things up on the grill too and had it cut down
anyway, itll look great hanging on a wall as the incorrect proportions will be tough to spot when its not on a car
...actually i can tell you almost to the cent
but first, for a really well sorted "collectible" car the prices seem to be around $25-30k. thatd be something that just about has receipts since new, and maybe only a couple owners, or maybe some sort of celebrity ownership early on. which if you think about what youre getting really doesnt seem too bad, especially compared to similar vintage mercedes and things. prices for convertibles and 2dr cars are significantly higher.
the next level down seems to be where the prices go haywire as the spread between different examples is huge - i did some digging a little while back through the RROC classifieds and during the height of the market crash a few years ago reasonably clean, mechanically sound cars were going from $8-15k, which was quite a large spread. since then it seems the prices have gone up a few thousand. but these would be cars you could hop in and drive but were showing some cosmetic wear, or basically werent show worthy or collectible, and may not have had receipts for everything.
also, the shadow 2 - that has the rubber bumpers that this car wore at the start of the thread - are a lot more common, a lot more complex, and are generally a lot cheaper (from what ive seen). im also not as big of a fan of the looks...
ive had a hard time finding many other late 60s shadows to compare pricing to - they only made ~4000 or so before 1970 - but it seems a good sorted car with clean interior and good mechanicals and receipts should go for mid to high teens, but who knows. also the RHD examples are worth less than LHD ones in theory, but based on the completed ebay listings and the the RROC posts i havent really seen that much difference in the real world, but i havent been looking that long and as i said there arent that many "sold" examples to compare to.
having said all that, were into about the mid teens at this point. keeping in mind this is split between two people, and is money spent over the course of a year or so, isnt really that bad in my opinion... my hope at the end of all this is that we'll come near the price of a good runner, we will have sorted all the interior wear, and we will know that the mechanicals (especially the brakes and trans) are ready to go for another 30 years. we also bought a lot of things we didnt technically need to - like the bumpers, the new grill, etc - that drove the budget up a bit and didnt really add to the reliability or mechanical soundness of the car, but i wouldnt have felt as good driving without them
we also spent about $2000 more than expected on the transmission work, but these things happen... so without the extra money spent on chrome, and the extra spent on trans work, we could have been sitting around $10k all in. but going into this project i had said all along that i dont mind not making money on it, as it really has to be a labor of love given how much time most of the repairs take.
so, the inevitable question - would you do it again? - i would say yes, without hesitation. but, if i were spending a year hunting for the "right" car id make it a '68 or '69 (RHD or LHD, doesnt really matter, i actually think the RHD sort of adds to the unique feel of driving the car) so that i could get the picnic tables, the chrome bumpers, no emissions equipment, the simple old style dash with no center console, but have the more common 3spd transmission. i also probably wouldnt mind buying a car with shot brakes versus this one with a shot transmission, as you might be able to complete more of a test drive on a car with shot brakes. but, at the end of the day, im happy with our car, its low mileage, its hilariously 60s color scheme, its lack of any appreciable rust, and the fact that it is an early car with all of the attributes i mentioned above aside from the 3spd transmission.
all the brake hardline tools are in, the new grill is in, and i have all the last little bits and pieces to finish off the brake work... but im out of town for the next week, and didnt really have time to get to the shop before i left early last week
therell definitely be lots of photos posted in a couple weeks when ive had a chance to get back to it and actually put some time in.
its hogging my lift and i need to get some new suspension under the land rover, so i need the lift back
so we decided to push the rolls off the lift for a week or so while we put a new motor in my roommates mk1 jetta, and i get a chance to finally lift the land rover...
in the meantime i thought id update the thread with the rough parts price breakdown someone requested earlier.
heres some approximate numbers on the big stuff weve got so far (keeping in mind that these totals are split between two people, over about a year or so.. making it a bit easier on the wallet...):
$5000 - trans rebuild + trans parts + two spare transmissions + carb adjustment/tuneup and adjustment of trans linkages/clutches at trans shop after final install
$1900 - two chrome bumpers and associated brackets, plus one extra rear bumper (minus overriders)
$1000 - used grill and flying lady, this was a smoking deal compared to others i saw while shopping around, and a bit of an unplanned ebay purchase due to the low price...
$160 - intake hose brackets and new knockoff hose
$250 - fluids for first startup (lots of fluids! )
$800 - used exhaust + used/new hangers + seals + buddy's time to do the welding/fitment
$350 - new genuine plug wires
$100 - new coil, misc ignition parts
$200 - misc gaskets, motor mounts
$1700 - brake parts so far
that isnt counting the money spent on some of the brake tools and various other odds and ends... all in all, an expensive project, to be sure... but a learning experience and definitely interesting so far.
and for those of you playing the home game, significant $$ could have been saved buying a '67 with the proper '67 brightwork on it... or buying a couple year newer car with a cheaper to find/fix 3spd transmission, but at this point were saving a relatively low mile car that appears to be in pretty decent shape.
heres to hoping it treats us as well as weve been treating it so far
dont really have any of the RR at the moment...
heres a link to a few old disco ones to tide you over
we'll see if this thing being roadworthy lines up with any of the local shows... itd be fun to get it out there so some of you local guys can see it in person
i havent forgotten about this project!
should be back to work on this thing within the next week or so... life, work trips, and other car projects have distracted me lately but i hope to have the other cars squared away by the end of this weekend and get back to finishing up the last few bits of rear brakes that need doing on this.. and getting the new grill mounted and sorted out.
time for a picture dump!
start with the more boring stuff...
shot of one of the old brake hoses i cut in half. you can see it was starting to collapse, which i guess is the typical failure mode for these
and i finally tracked down one of these bastard early car exhaust hangers, in great shape no less... dont ask what it cost
the ladies... pretty sure the one on the left is a repop.
the lady in the new grill was stuck in there thanks to a stripped allen... that took two additional people and a drill press to take care of. doh!
the offending hole:
the base collection.. our original was in perfect shape, so we used that (on the left)
time for the good stuff, refinishing and getting the polish on it!
heres a terrible shot of how it started out of the UPS box
the sheet metal bits had some surface rust so i knocked that down, primered and satin blacked it
the bottom bit looked like it originally had some clearcoat overspray on it so we had to knock that down with a scotchbrite pad. this lower bar is completely hidden by the bumper anyway, but just for completeness sake! (i didnt take pics but the sides and all the slats got polished as well)
the car should look 110% better with the bumpers on and the new grill being crazy shiny...
and the polishing so far was one of the only projects that went exactly as planned, took exactly as long as expected, and actually made an immediately noticeable difference
i have to make a couple little angle brackets for the bottom edge of the grill, which is why the bumper isnt on yet, but ive got some more positive vibes now to tackle the last of the brake work so ill keep plugging away at that this week..
enough shiny parts... time for some of the grimy bits!
really put this thing through its paces this weekend, and feels like money well spent now given how smooth its making this whole brake line making process! definitely wasnt cheap (and the cost per flare is pretty high ) but i dont regret it after having used it now.
also, the cunifer brake line material from fed hill is AMAZING... extremely easy to work with. highly recommended!
couple test pieces
heres the broken bit that started this madness - drivers rear suspension height control feed line
new guy, installed!
one of the new cross over lines for the rear brakes, next to the old one
were now down to just making a new passenger side rear height control feed line and were ready to go. that one is about to fail in the same manner as the one that broke, so i figured why not go ahead and replace it while doing the soft line for that circuit.
im amazed at how quickly this is all going, so im hoping to have this wrapped up in a few days. weve almost got the old pass side height control feed line out (all the damn rusted on line clamps are off, and the line is loose) it just needs to be wiggled out of the car.
then later this week id like to give everything a once over and see if we can get the damn thing to bleed (fingers crossed!)
quick update, no pics, but we fired it up last night after getting the last hard and soft line in.
everything connected to the rear accumulator bled fine, we can get clean fluid through there - this is progress! - we now have 1/2 of the front brakes working, along with everything out back!
still has issues feeding fluid to the front accumulator though, same as before. noodling through that with the RROC guys at the moment, and we'll see what the next step is.
if it means pulling the pump then so be it, but im not totally convinced yet that thats the issue - pump doesnt make noise and i can feel the feed line pulsing like the pump is doing something... we'll see!
will have more info later
looks like we're in for pulling the pumps. while ive got the upper intake off im going to find a cleaner looking used upper manifold to replace our pitted one, and of course reseal both pumps.
should be some pretty good carnage shots of the engine torn apart once this gets under way.
just ordered the rebuild bits and intake gaskets today along with the pump tool, so probably not starting until late next week when all the parts show up, and i can confirm our buddy in canada has a clean intake manifold for me to buy.
brake pump rebuild parts should be here shortly...
stay tuned for some torn-down pics from this weekend
just popped the front brake pump off tonight and had a look around. looks like our front brake pump pushrod isnt moving. pulled a little bit and couldnt get it out, but waiting on RROC confirmation on the proper removal method - nothing in the shop manual on this topic. regardless it needs to come out for inspection/replacement.
pictures to come
just confirmed via RROC that the front pushrod is stuck roughly in the full up position (~1/2" sticking up above the bottom of the pump cavity)... possibly explaining why nothing was making weird noises, as its likely that the cam lobe entirely misses the pushrod at this point.
the spring pressure on the pumps is really low, and is the only thing that forces the pushrod back down (aside from gravity) so it could have fused itself in there from sitting parked too long - there was some evidence of moisture underneath the pump so i think this is the theory ill go with for now...
for kicks heres the cutaway view of the whole mess from the workshop manual. cutaway is drawn with the pushrod in the fully down position.
plan for this weekend is to tear the upper intake manifold off in prep for arrival of the new one, and see what i can do about unsticking/removing the front pushrod. hoping to pick up a new intake manifold next week/weekend, and possibly another pushrod if this one ends up being ruined in the removal process.
will also refurb the pumps after the intake manifold is off.
should make for some nice pictures
good news all around this weekend - push rod came out with some persuasion, nothing was damaged, and the intake manifold was a breeze to remove.
intake manifold off, just one bolt holding the whole thing down (once the fuel lines and couple hoses are unhooked). so far of all the things ive serviced on this car, this is probably the most well thought out system - easy to remove for service. was probably due for removal as the main gasket was in pretty sad shape.
shot of the corroded pushrod. we soaked the little chamber it sits in, in some penetrating fluid and eventually were able to hit it hard enough to knock it loose. bumped the starter and the cam was able to pop it back up, and out it came!
manifold/carbs... after a closer look i might try to get some new gaskets for a couple of the carb bits also... i have new stuff for the intake manifold
carbs broken loose
and this is why im replacing the upper intake
hoping to get my hands on some new parts this week and we should be in business by the weekend...
i still have to pull the rear pump while the intake is off, and service both pumps while theyre out, but those should be minor jobs this week.
some more shots from tonight...
front brake pump is MIA because its soaking in penetrating oil
just got back from canada with a whole bunch of parts...
looking like we have the early - non fusible link - brake pushrods and ive now got all the parts needed to convert over to the later style. another "while we're in there" thing... in the event that the rod ever seizes again, and not in the fully up position, we can prevent cam/engine damage.
completing the conversion means pulling the lower intake and valley cover, but should provide another good opportunity to peak into the motor and see how things are looking in there.
...also time for another order from Albers for gaskets when that intake comes off, and i just ordered more parts yesterday oh well
and i needed to do the thermostat anyway and this will be a good opportunity while the coolant is drained for that manifold removal
lots more pictures to come this weekend although mostly of tearing things down as ill be waiting on parts until mid next week at the earliest before things start coming together
a few of the new parts from last week...
new choke housing, no melted parts!
the new brake pump pushrod parts, spent some time cleaning everything today.
and you can see the old (solid) versus new (fused) push rods
spent some time cleaning the new stuff today... waiting on the second order of gaskets and orings before i pull the lower intake and swap the valley covers/push rod pedestals, but that should be pretty quick. i didnt want to leave the engine even more torn apart for the next week while i waited for parts.
having second thoughts also on painting the engine bits before reassembly... not sure how painting over the silver coating would work out for the intake horns. we'll see how im feeling later this week but at the moment thinking ill hold off.
anyway, should have more updates later next week when the parts start to show up
should have a big pic update in a couple days, but weekend's progress was excellent.
got both valve cover gaskets swapped to the new style rubber setup, and in doing so discovered the A bank head had been off the car at some point relatively recently as it was really clean and it also already had the rubber valve cover gasket setup. B bank head probably had the original cork one, as it looked really old and was leaking like crazy... but its all been updated now, and you can actually read the RR on both sides of the motor now getting the B bank valve cover off was a pretty involved process (all told both sides took ~4 hours including cleaning and reassembly), so there should be some good pictures to check out of that...
also got the lower intake off the car yesterday afternoon, along with a few other associated parts, and will be cleaning/painting all of that over the next couple days. i managed to find engine paint to match the silver coating on the intake horns, so the whole motor should be looking really sharp soon. i decided not to paint the valve covers when i had them off just to preserve some patina, and they werent really in bad shape other than a few spots where the paint had been nicked off that should be easily covered up when the intake parts are bolted back on.
the valley cover on the block and surrounding area look pretty dirty, so whoever had the intake off to do the head before probably didnt bother lifting/resealing the valley cover as it looks like its been slowly leaking a bit of oil around the cover and getting everything greasy... so therell be some work in cleaning that all up. the factory used a silk thread to seal up the valley cover originally (and im sure thats whats still in ours...) and im sure they leaked as soon as the cars were cranked for the first time... thatll be getting redone with an actual seal when i bolt it all together this time.
also found that the thermostat was missing, rather than stuck open like i originally thought - the car would run normal-ish temps around town then get super cooled on the highway. ive got a new tstat assembly waiting to go in, so we'll see what happens there... it didnt seem to ever get hot before if the gauges are to be trusted... fingers crossed!
should have the rebuilt brake pumps back in the shop soon, and then its all ready for reassembly!
should be posting a lot of the pictures in a day or so..
the new looking head
B bank valve cover before...
old gasket bits...
oil filler neck bits... filled with some of that same goop from the oil pan
getting ready to remount it, after the valve cover install
masked up for paint...
test shot of the intake horn paint..
looking like a total mess (with clean valve covers! )... for now.
got the intake and tstat housing stuff painted today, as well a few of the base coats on the lower intake manifold. ill have pictures of that tomorrow.
planning to be all wrapped up with the painting tomorrow and make a dent in the cleaning and brake pump pedestal swap. also the refreshed brake pumps will be in tomorrow afternoon, so thatll make all the parts needed to get it all back together, which should hopefully be the motivation i need to wrap up the cleaning/painting and get everything prepped for reassembly tomorrow night
i have more, just didnt have time to edit/post them last night.
reassembly starts this afternoon though.
popped the valley cover off of our block and all looks well, no cam damage or any issues from that seized pushrod.
just need to do a little more cleaning, and rechecking the clearance on the new pushrod setup, and shes ready to go back together. all the paint is dry and looking good on the intake parts as well, so that should be exciting going back together
no history, and nothing mentioned by the guy we got it from. car has around 60k on it.
i tried (and i think i mentioned it in a post or two earlier in the thread) to get a hold of the primary owner's kids but with no luck. i was able to get in touch with the estate lawyer but none of the kids ever got back to me. i might pursue that again once it hits the road for real, and just pass on a few photos to the lawyer and see if he can pass those onto the kids... id just like to talk to someone for a few minutes and see where the car was serviced if nothing else! hah
i have mailing addresses, or rather PO boxes, for some of the previous owners so i might try the snail mail approach just for kicks as well...
someone knew what they were doing though as they put on the later style valve cover gasket parts, and the head had obviously been off the car as its spotless, in the ports as well as under the valve cover.
the B bank head looks about as used and oily as id expect though, and it had original looking gaskets.
this is pretty consistent with what ive seen through other parts of the car - that it was maintained at some point but has been sitting for a really long time as of late.
finally, pics in the thread will be up to date with whats actually going on in the shop
refurb'd brake pumps
pulling the valley cover...
everything looking pretty good inside
and just as a comparison, the updated push rod pedestals versus the old ones that came out of the car. its really no surprise why they had oiling issues on the older style setup... where the hell is the oil going to get in there?
and for those of you playing the home game, this was during the test fit up to measure the pushrod length, so the official bolt keepers arent installed yet...
and where i left it... all sealed up (with actual sealer! not silk thread ) and snugged.
also got most of the upper intake and carb gaskets swapped tonight.
more pics/progress to come in a few days
some shots from the weekend...
finally, new/clean things going back onto the car
new gaskets, and all buttoned up
its ready to fire, but this is all you guys get for a while!
ive got a pretty busy week so we'll see when i get to wrench on it next... and i want a second set of eyes during the start up, and we have to retime the ignition as well.
well good news and some bad news.
good news, the front pump is fixed...
bad news is now the rear doesnt seem to be pumping anything.
unsure yet if its an issue with the priming or if the whole thing needs removal again. folks on RROC saying the rear may be more tricky to prime than the front. we'll see...
planning on taking the upper intake off tonight for closer inspection... will check for pushrod movement/damage (no idea how it could have bent after just starting, but who knows at this point), and checking the pushrod installed height, again.
...and the removal of the carbs has screwed with our idle speed, so thatll have to get sorted out as well.
bit disheartening after all that work to have to start tearing things apart again. doh!
just a buzz kill... we'll see what happens tonight
if the pushrod isnt damaged (which will be an easy check with the upper intake off) then it's something with either bleeding or the pump itself...
after a phone call with one of the many helpful RROC folks, i gave it hell with a vacuum bleeder and after a few minutes finally got some fluid moving through the pump while stationary and that was the gentle nudge it needed to pump on its own...
we got the rest of the system bled as well, starting to run dangerously low on RR363 so we might have to kill a few more unicorns for that, but i think we can stretch what we've got to through the remainder of the process.
fluid is now coming out of all the places its supposed to be, and as expected one of the front calipers is seized (more or less open, thankfully) so thatll need doing. and in the process of removing the alternator ive managed to cause the generator light to come on... havent checked batt voltage while running yet to see if its a false alarm or not. easy enough to service if needed though, and it looks generic.
anyway, lot of work to get both brake lights to finally go out, but its done now.
plan at the moment is to spend the weekend sorting out the ignition timing, dle speed, and carb tuning
planning on meeting up with a local british car guru in a couple days to see if i can pick his brain on the carb stuff... maybe even coax him up to the shop to help me out, we'll see.
need to spend some time cleaning everything up and getting the wheels back on so we can idle it and warm it up outside to do the rest of the tuning... ill get some pictures once its back down on the ground!
taking care of some last details before it hits the road...
almost done putting in the new ebrake cable. definitely a curious design with pullies and pulley brackets that require complete disassembly to thread the cable through
alternator a voltage reg are still at the electrical shop. alternator checks out but something is fishy with the regulator. they claim theyll be done testing/fixing before the long weekend but we'll see how it pans out...
i think i have all the knowledge/tools to get the idle and ignition timing under control when we fire it up again though, and with the new ebrake cable itll be usable around town!
sorry for the lack of pictures, not a lot to see with the ebrake cable change... just imagine two small pullies in an impossibly small area, and lots of fiddly work under the dash to disconnect the cable from the ratchet mechanism
sure did, made it outside for a bit weather was definitely amazing!
as promised, a few pictures from jim of the brake pump overhaul. you can really see how nasty the rear one was inside...
and the carb and ignition tuning from this weekend.
a few of these will probably look familiar to brit car nuts whove tinkered on other SU units before... but it was all new/interesting to me, so i figured id snap pics as we went through it
chris working his SU voodoo... and the rpm meter on the fluke proved priceless, as this all would have been impossible without a way to judge rpm.
and the hot laps around the lot for a final checkout of the mixture tune.
all around excellent progress this weekend. weve got the carbs dialed in, ignition timing done, carbs synced up and the idle speed all set up. engine response and idle quality are all awesome, the brakes are stopping the car, and everything seems to work well.
one snag though is a bit of a mysterious intermittent high idle after either running at higher rpms or after a hard throttle stab. the idle will only come back down after a few good whacks of the throttle to really move the rpms around.
right now were thinking something in the advance mechanism of the distributor, as nothing with the carb linkage, carb syncing, idle stop, choke, or vacuum leak wise seemed to bear any fruit... linkage isnt bound up, the throttle bushings are solid so the plates arent mis-seating, and the linkage is against the idle stop the whole time.
i did some quick searching and seemed to find similar symptoms popping up on a couple other forums, and talked to one of our friends who runs a british car restoration shop down south of here and he seemed to lean toward the distributor as well.
as a result ive got a line in to a lucas distributor guy recommended by andy (or local brit car expert) and we'll see if we can get this one gone through for peace of mind anyway. car is drivable as-is but i dont want to beat on the trans getting it in and out of gear at really high rpms...
planning to have all the other little details for road-worthiness sorted this week (like the front bumper! ) then we can chase down this high idle nonsense and enjoy some summer drives
got the light on it (just the same as any other distributor ive seen, its got dual points though) the mark on the damper is really tough to spot but its doable... we got the timing in spec at idle (the manual never mentions unhooking the vacuum signal, just to do the initial timing set with it at idle) and you can see the advance happening from there if you rev it up.
trouble with diagnosing the weights/vacuum advance sticking is that once its already at 1500rpm the timing will just show what it needs to be at that rpm... so its kind of a circular problem - advance raises the idle which increases the advance which raises the idle, etc etc.
this is likely whatll end up happening...
emailing a bit with the distributor guru and he says $150-200 to make it new again. not a bad price given the cost of even finding another used one (early cars used a different distributor than the later shadows, i think they switched over sometime in the early 70s).
ill probably give it a go with some break-free lubricant, and see what it looks like in there if i can get it apart far enough.
to do list for this week is fooling with that distributor some more, checking the alternator warning light system, finishing the ebrake cable install, getting the front bumper aligned and permanently mounted, and i also want to give the manual portion of the brake system another bleed (the part that actually gives you pedal feel) as it seems a bit on the soft side after moving the car around a bit.
just got back from the shop after taking apart the distributor.
everything seems to check out as far as corrosion and wear - will have pics later.
tested the vacuum advance and that moves smoothly, and the counterweights move smoothly as well and dont appear corroded. the only thing i could think that could be wrong with them might be kind of weak springs... on initial engagement the weights kind of have some slop against the springs, but otherwise the springs arent rusty or broken.
i played a bit more with the timing adjustment and idle stop and i think we may be able to mostly mask the issue by raising the idle timing up (after running through the numbers again we might be ~5 deg too retarded) so that if anything is getting stuck, the timing difference between idle and "stuck" will be much less.
right now the "stuck" idle speed is lower than it was before, and the only adjustment i made was raising the timing.
will be putting some more time into the timing and readjusting the idle tomorrow night to take advantage of this nice weather, so hopefully we'll have some good news tomorrow
got the timing and idle speed dialed in again today, after some more checks... were still having the fast idle issues.
got a chance to actually check what the timing was doing, and when it sticks it looks like it sticks to ~25-28deg, which as i recall is about full advance, all of which is making me think something may still be up with the weights, and at this point we have enough other work on the car to keep us busy if we further delayed driving it that i think its probably worth getting it gone though.
TDB on that for now though...
interior shot... a preview of whats going to get worked on next
forgot the hubcaps!
next few weeks should be interesting, probably the last update for a bit... stay tuned
radiator is out for service as of this morning, when we pulled it it did end up looking fairly gunked up and the general condition of the thing makes me think it hasnt been cleaned or out of the car ever... planning on a pile of new hoses while its apart to finish off the cooling system service. figure money spent up front on keeping temps under control is a safer bet than overheating this thing
more pics to come after the weekend, with hopefully some news/ETA on the radiator work.
another random non-photo update: car used to be owned by Yorkshire TV in the early 70s.
ive got a folder full build records and warranty info coming over from the UK...
also made another attempt to contact the deceased former owner's son in Oregon this afternoon via the estate lawyer who handled their case when the dad died.
we'll see what happens... hoping the family wasnt totally disfunctional after splitting up the estate, and that someone is willing to give me the lowdown on the where and when regarding the car
the son didnt have an email on file with the lawyer but hes going to try getting ahold of him again. lawyer seems like a friendly/helpful enough guy so i might just ping him a few more times until i hear something from the son - even if he tells me to leave him alone at least ill have confirmed that he knows im interested in speaking with him.
update from the radiator shop as well, theyre hoping to be wrapped up with the rodding out/rebuild tonight or tomorrow morning, so we might be reassembling the cooling system this weekend if i can wrap up the other car im working on this week
too much going on at once!
got the radiator back on friday afternoon but never did get around to doing anything with it. the radiator shop guys said they didnt find any major blockage in the core, just that it was looking older but had been rebuilt at some point and had some parts that were going to start leaking soon. i didnt get any shots yet of the rebuilt rad but it looks really nice!
anyway, as a result of no slam dunks with the radiator core, made the call today to just continue on with cooling system work while its all drained and the radiator is out... so... with that in mind, the waterpump is out as of tonight, along with all the cooling system hoses. will be going to napa tomorrow to see what i can match for hoses there (the RROC guys have already found a suitable replacement for the upper hose, but ill need to find a bottom hose)
waterpump itself isnt in the greatest of shape after removing it, so im going to start looking into rebuild options there as well - bearings need doing as there was some slop, and something needs to be done about the pitting on the impeller.
ive also started stripping down the top tank in prep for the radiator shop guys to take that and split it in half for cleaning and to reattach one of the internal baffles thats come loose.
anyway, pictures! from the last week or so...
water level sensor from the top tank
still need to get that damn steam valve off of there, and the screws are super soft and really well seized up... soaking in fluid now to see if theyll come off later this week. i might just leave it for the radiator shop though
this is even more grimy than it looks...
and... waterpump shots
some pretty intense buildup and pitting on the impeller...
and the hose collection! (with a couple waterpump vbelts to get while its all apart)
another quick update:
bits and pieces of the car flying all over the country right now!
the waterpump is off to canada to get reworked by jim (same guy from RROC who did the brake pumps)
distributor is off to minnesota for a rebuild
top tank will be dropped off for rework locally tomorrow
im going to powdercoat the fan and hub while theyre out to keep making things look nicer before putting them back in
yesterday i found heater hoses that should be perfect matches for the stock parts after trimming
and i think ive got generic matches for the top and bottom hoses as well, but should find out for sure this afternoon... fingers crossed!
more pictures to come as things start trickling back in, probably late next week.
yeah we do need to get this thing out for some good photos once its all cleaned up and outside again. i was thinking some sort of older house... but nothing has come to mind yet locally thats isolated enough...
some quick updates, got the top tank back a few days ago, looking very nice. distributor should be headed home in a few days as well, and waterpump should be here by the end of the week.
ive been distracting myself building the new engine for my gti while waiting on RR parts... should be back onto the RR within a week or so
havent updated this in a bit as ive been waiting for parts to come in from all over, but some big news on the history/background front!
ive now got copies of all the original factory/ordering documents from '67. theres probably around 45-50 pages worth of handwritten notes and forms filled out at the factory along the build process.
ill post up some shots of the more interesting bits of that - theres everything from the original order sheet, notes from each build station on what was done and how in tolerance various parts were, serial numbers of major components and valves fitted to the car, notes from the engine test station on how it was running/how the carbs were tuned, and notes from the final inspection on what had to be redone/adjusted before delivery (looked like even the factory had a hard time adjusting these gearboxes to shift smoothly, and fitting the brake system to be leak free ), there are also warranty cards showing the first 2 owners (through the early 70s) in the UK - the second of which was a tv station!
i also got a call back the other night from the US owner's son who was able to fill in the gaps between 1987 and when we picked it up, and he also has pictures of it from when they brought it home in '87 and throughout his dad's ownership of the car that hes going to copy and mail to me. he was really excited to hear that the car is being taken care of as i guess it was one of his dad's dream cars and he just had to have it when they found it.
ill type up the whole story as he gave it to me (was pretty lengthy, i had to take notes) when i get a chance, but suffice to say it had an interesting couple of years in the mid 80s before they found it in michigan in '87. how it got to michigan from the UK is also kind of bizarre.
just waiting on the waterpump to arrive and reassembly should start early next week
were scouting some local photo shoot spots as well! should be some good updates with lots of pictures rolling in really soon
same here, and im really curious to check out the pictures of it when they got it in the 80s.... itll be interesting to see whether the SS2 bumpers/mirrors and shortened grill were already on it, or whether that was added during the 80s...
also just got off the phone with jeff from advanced distributors who refurb'd the distributor... he said the advance springs were basically stretched out to the point of almost not being operable. apparently we were getting the same advance during cranking and idle that itd normally see at 1900rpm! he also delayed the start of the advance curve until about 1000rpm to smooth the idle out. he says the other RR lucas stuff hes done folks have liked that better than the stock setting, because of this we'll run a little more advance at idle than stock and it should purr at 500rpm
also mentioned the upper bearing and the bushings in it looked like they were in really good shape, hes always had to put new ones in these but this looks like a really low mileage example, which seems to jive with the rest of the car.
highly recommend him for any lucas or bosch distributor work, really nice guy on the phone and really reasonable prices
had a minute tonight to go through my notes from the conversation with the former owner's son, whos now likely an older gentleman himself. heres the gist of what i wrote down, we'll just call the guy i spoke to T
i got in touch with t after finding some paperwork with his name and his fathers name in the stack of papers we got with the car. thanks to a helpful member on here who was able to scan some old court cases i found the estate lawyer for t's dad's estate and he was able to get t in touch with me...
anyway, the story!
t's dad and his dad's brother in law were traveling to michigan in 1987 to pick up some things for a charity auction back home in oregon. they stopped at a bank that was having a repo sale, and noticed the RR in the back lot, looking like itd sat there for a while. t's dad had always been a big RR fan but had never owned, driven, or worked on one. they offered the bank $13,000 to take the thing off their hands. bank accepted and after a tuneup, a new battery, and some new tires they drove the car home to oregon.
the bank told them theyd had the car several years after having repo'd it off of a boat in new york. apparently a guy had flown to the UK to buy it a few years earlier and shipped it home to himself, along the way something went wrong - t thought he remembered something about a bankruptcy but wasn't sure - and the bank wanted their car. it then sat in flint michigan until his dad picked it up.
prior to this guy shipping it to the US, it had been owned by an elderly lady who had a driver - according to the owners manual and paperwork that they had received with the car from the bank [unfortunately this was all missing when we picked it up]. the car had worn out paint on the high edges of the fenders and roof when they got to it in 1987, so they suspected an overzealous polishing job by the lady's driver had worn out the lacquer.
the car never had a set of oregon plates, t remembers his dad saying that it was legal at the time as it had been imported that way and had been registered in oregon under the original british plate.
he said his dad really loved the car and drove it everywhere when he had it, he also did a majority of the maintenance on the car [likely circa late early 90s] as his dad was a mechanic his entire life.
after his dad passed the car was sold to a pawnshop in idaho (as part of the estate settlement i assume) whose owner had a friend that was a former RR tech in california. they worked on the car for some time before t remembers not seeing it around - likely when it was picked up by the guy we got it from and brought to washington.
anyway, crazy stuff, kind of a neat story... the theme of which seems to be that it was relatively unused for some time in the early 80s. then used for 10-15 years, then unused again for quite a while again.
i still owe you guys some shots of the factory paperwork, planning on getting to that this week, along with some shots of all the new cooling system stuff
as i promised a while while back... therell be pictures of the factory builds sheets. so theres finally a pic heavy update
heres what else has been new in the meantime. just waiting on the waterpump to come back and we're back on the road...
repainted top tank with a resoldered inner center baffle and new seals and whatnot...
i had a buddy help with some powdercoating on the fan and hub, so thats all looking great now... cant wait to get that on the motor
cant wait to get these on the motor as the top tank and fan blades were kind of an eye sore before.
and finally the refurb'd distributor
should actually have some ignition advance now!
and finally, onto some random shots from the factory records.
price sheet... looks like it was sold at a bit of a discount being a dealer demo
theres just pages and pages of stuff like this:
talked to some folks at work about that - im told its to minimize the thumping noise you get while its running. as the fan diameter or flow increases, even blade placement would cause that thump-thump-thump you hear when prop airplanes are running.
this thing is still loud, but it doesnt have a resonance like an airplane does.
i think some newer larger higher flow fans do this as well
i think i included it up there, but maybe not, anyway the amount of things needing "follow up work" was pretty amazing. the adjusting and readjusting of various trim bits, linkages, etc was definitely eye opening...
i can only imagine the army of people involved in hand assembling this thing in the 60s before robots and sub-assemblies really took hold... even today's RR is a hand assembled set of sub-assemblies. id imagine this car truly was hand built.
just received word back that the new water pump is on its way home.
ive got a show to go to this weekend so itll probably be getting installed sometime next week - hopefully - before i go to another show next thursday night, then leave town for the rest of the month.
august got really busy...
had some time this weekend and got to work on the RR
waterpump is back on and resealed.
pump gets almost completely hidden once its all back together
was going to get further but i need a slightly longer belt. hoping to get that sorted out this week.
not even sure how the waterpump oring wasnt leaking before... incredibly crusty...
all new heater hoses done as well, snaking the lower heatercore hose into the center of the firewall was a bitch, along with having to remove it and trim it but the end fit was perfect.
more to come
the moving slowly the last couple months was beyond my control - parts being out all over the place and taking their time getting back here.
then of course i took off for work for a few weeks right when everything showed up again
end of this weekend im planning on running it and setting the ignition timing up again
got everything back together...
some good news, and some bad news... good news is the cooling system appears to work great, keeping things under control, and the new cooling system parts look great (theyre black and kind of buried so theyre tough to catch nicely on camera).
the bad news, it still has that damn high idle hang
cant be the ignition now, so its gotta be something with the carbs.
probably going to involve a pro within the next week or so, so we can get it taken care of once and for all, as im out of ideas and well outside my comfort zone with any further troubleshooting.
we reset the ignition timing and got everything going tonight and it runs/idles great, revs up awesome and runs well right up until you go to let off the throttle, and if you've made it above ~1500rpm itll just stick there.
the adventure continues i guess
got a couple more ideas on the carb tuning to see whats causing our issue, and ill be stopping by the local british car guru's shop tomorrow afternoon for some more pointers (and to chat MGB GTs )
im hoping next week i can tinker on the RR some more and either fix the idle issue using his suggestions or exhaust all options up here and haul it down to his place for some tuning
sorted the inconsistent idle issue out this weekend...finally!
turned out to be a slightly sloppy pinch connection on the passenger side throttle shaft, letting the throttle plate come to rest in a couple different positions when the linkage was "closed". something minor and stupid of course. the amount the throttle plate was allowed to wiggle with the pinch bolt was so minor... but it was enough to change the idle quite a bit.
anyway... in the battle to get everything adjusted we managed to break one of the semi-seized throttle linkage pieces going down to the transmission. car can move around and in/out of the shop, but its back to being parked until we can track down a couple of the linkage bits.
im looking on mcmaster to see if theyve got anything thatll allow us to modernize that portion of the linkage, but i havent had any luck yet....
Ep I know what you mean about niggling issues I'm trying to look the other way here.... Hah
Glad people are still enjoying the thread. I've got a line on some new linkage bits so it looks like that'll be a minor setback
Then it's on to winter interior projects!
and a complete new factory linkage set is on the way!
should clear up some of the other seized up bits that were preventing us from getting it 100% dialed before.
pics, stories, etc to come once it all shows up, probably early next week. got lots of other projects lined up for the shop later this week and weekend.
yeah, while thats fun to read about and see pictures of id much rather be showing you guys pictures of it all cleaned up and outside someplace nice... but we'll get there eventually....
the interior wood redo should be interesting to share shots of. hopefully we can capture the before/after properly to show the difference.
i also had a crazy thought the other day to maybe try painting under the hood myself, but im not sure on how to mask off the rest of the shop to keep overspray from getting on everything else. maybe something to consider while the woodwork is out getting redone...
couple shots of the new linkage bits before install...
ive been sick the past couple days but got a bit of energy tonight to get this installed. fairly straight forward installed, just a couple bolts. everything is in the car now but needs to have its final adjustment and tightening, which i didnt get a chance to do.
installed shots dont really show anything, but these are kind of interesting.
the adjustable bit at the bottom of the picture is the one that broke on ours. this one is buttery smooth and can be adjusted by hand, ours was fairly seized up - even more so than i thought after comparing it to this new one.
and just for fun, heres an overview diagram from the shop manual - with the two main adjustment points highlighted (D is the one that broke)
should be all mechanically dialed after this. we already started doing some serious leather treatment this weekend as well, and thats turning out quite nicely
its like a terrible game of mousetrap
and this is surely the most complicated of the 4 combinations - 3spd RHD/LHD, 4spd LHD/RHD
i had an oh-**** moment when i was looking at the new stuff though, thinking i may not be able to slide that main front/back pivot piece out of the intake manifold (#1 in the diagram) without the manifold being off the car, which would have definitely been a RR move!.. but luckily it slid out the front of the manifold without too much hassle.
looots of updates this weekend...
we got all the idle stuff finally sorted, everything adjusted properly and in spec on the linkage according to the manual. spent most of the afternoon saturday washing/polishing/waxing and BOY what a difference that made.
ill let the pics do the talking...
getting started on some polishing, the oxidation just came right off.
a before/after on the drivers side doors..
aaannd... all done!
im not sure if the pictures really convey the difference enough, as i was taking them from some new angles, but the car looks 100x better than it did in person.
we ran out of daylight saturday night to really take advantage of how good it was looking, but plans were made for some photos on sunday.
and since TCL has seen the great shots of the road tripping silver cloud going through chicago, we thought we'd share some pics over the hood of the silver shadow and the west coast sunset
and to keep it better organized ill reply with a new post with the sunday shots...
so we ended up going all over the place for some shots sunday. this is looking like it might be the last rain-free weekend for quite a while here so we thought wed make the most of it. probably put ~45 miles driving around today, so i guess some progress.
everything seems well mechanically still *knock on wood*...
black/white and color version of all the shots from our day out are in the album here...
i have more to edit still but ill add them in there later...
as far as driving impressions go, ive definitely got a few things to say on that front after spending some time on the open road with it and not trying to shake things down or listening for rattles, but just enjoying the car
the super light steering and touchy brakes really make the thing feel easier to control than it actually ends up being. big car, tall tires, soft suspension, etc means it really doesnt corner like a modern car and that caught me off guard a couple times. couple that with the RHD and not knowing where the far edge of the car is and two lane roads with sharp corners were a learning experience!
im also not that nuts on the RHD, its really neat for the looks it gets - more on that later - and the uniqueness factor, but its incredibly impractical. its tough to pull out of street parking, its hard to turn onto streets that join each other at an odd angle, and you really cant see around other cars in traffic to pass.
power output is great, around town and up hills its almost effortless, you just give it 20-30% pedal and it just goes. on the highway it definitely feels like it was geared to go 55mph or so. has plenty of power above that for passing but just doesn't feel/sound as stately going 65+. our exhaust isnt perfect so im sure thats part of it, but the engine/intake noise increases noticeably above 60.
speaking of gearing, the transmission shift points feel like it just wants to get you into top range as quickly as possible. which i guess makes sense - going 35mph you can barely tell its running. starting it up at idle on a busier street with some noise around you and without a tach you kind of have to do a double take to make sure its running. really odd how little noise it makes at idle! this will probably only get more awkward after i get the radio working, we drove around all weekend without any tunes.
as for the looks/attention it gets, that's really something else... people taking pictures with their phones at intersections, old guys in minivans asking what year it was while we were sitting in traffic, and lots of rubber necking... generally just causing a scene. somewhat amusing as i dont think i look like someone who should be driving an RR...
im sure the attention is mostly a regional thing as i doubt many people care much when they see these going down the road in LA or some larger cities, but in the smaller place i live i think its the only chrome bumper shadow on the road.
all in all a very successful weekend, and we had a blast finally doing something nice to the paint and taking advantage of the nice weather, and getting to enjoy some of the hard work thus far.
i added updated shots to the first post, and noticed its been just a couple weeks shy of 2 years since we picked this up
plans are afoot to maybe do up the under hood portions in POR15's chassis black (satin finish) while the woodwork is out. i think i can avoid spraying that way and still take care of the rust both visually and preventing it from spreading at all.... looking like thatll be the next round of projects....
some more pics from my roommates film shots he scanned in
really dug the depth of field and colors in his shots
this thing will be on hold for a few weeks while i catch up on other projects, but id like to have all the wood out of it before the first weekend in november
thats the plan!
i need to take out all the door tops, rear vanity mirrors, and wood trim around the front/rear windows (or attempt to, couple window trim bits look really tight with the glass still in...) and get them redone. the dash wood comes off of the dash frame as well (this doesnt look too terribly complex, but ill take pictures of course because it looks really scary all torn apart) and there is some dash topper wood that needs to come out as well, behind the dash padding at the base of the windsheild.
plan is to remove all of that (dash face included) and see how the patina on the dash face looks against the rest of the wood once its redone. its not really any more expense/hassle to redo the dash face, so we'll see when we get there... dash needs to come apart to fix a couple other annoying bits as well - ignition is kind of hard to turn and i want to see why the clock doesnt work.
otherwise on the interior im happy to report the seat leather is coming back to life really nicely after many coats of griots leather treatment... probably more to go there but its easy to apply another thin coat every time im working on stuff and let it soak in. drivers seat doesnt feel like its going to crack anymore!
also im working on finding some new/good condition used drivers side footwell carpet. that piece is getting to be in pretty sad shape.
so i guess no point in trying to hunt down a used one? is this like finding a working clock in a biturbo? hah
maybe ill set it to 5oclock and leave it there
the color is smoke green, not sure the interior color had a name. im a big fan of the green on green for that period correct look.
i agree the leather seats and dash panel have really good patina but the rest of the wood just looks bad. door tops have large sections of missing lacquer and whats there has turned dark and is cracking off in large sections, same with most of the window trim wood. just looks shoddy and neglected, a bit too far past the nice patina point, sadly. but it should be easy enough to redo as the actual wood pieces are in great shape just the lacquer is letting them down.
speaking of shakedowns, i may give the trans guys another call and talk about the range shift a bit more. feels a little harsher than id expect, although id imagine these transmissions didnt get the jerk-o-matic nickname for no reason...
they werent quartz originally? what did old timey cars use instead??
while were on the topic of fixing things, any ideas why the hub caps might be loose? i have one hub cap that for whatever reason regardless of the wheel i put it on always wobbles. the inner ring that clamps onto the wheel looks fine and seems to be circular enough but for the life of me that thing never fully clips onto the steel wheels
good god! yes!
yeah theyre RHD beams, but the lights are hardly what id call bright... lights up the road well enough but i dont think itd be blinding anyone. and with how few lights are on the thing in general probably best to avoid driving it at night...
i agree the proper thing to do would be to convert them though
thanks, its taken a lot of people's hard work to get it here!
just got a fan shroud for it today, so we'll get that updated to the 70+ spec. looking forward to getting that installed as the last piece of the cooling system.
looks like its some molded plastic, so hopefully theres a good way to clean that up, maybe some kind of flexible semi-gloss engine paint? (the stuff i put on the lower intake manifold and the carb inlets is holding up great, itd be awesome to have the shroud match the radiator and fan blades!)
also had a quick call to the trans shop today about the 2-3 gear shifts and it sounds like we can do some slight adjusting with the throttle valve linkage to the trans to try to change around the shift pressures but the 2-3 shift being on the harsh side wont be hurting anything - as id thought id read before that was an inherent trait of this trans. also browsed some antique cadillac forums and basically read the same thing. some adjustments will help make it sound smoother, less banging, etc but youll always get a bit of a jolt when it makes that shift. my main concern was about harming the transmission and he mentioned today that its alright for it to be on the harsher side, wont hurt anything in the trans if you can deal with the drivability, and itll keep the wear parts alive longer if its not slipping the shifts.
that shift being harsh is just kind of funny as its such a contrast to how smoothly it manages the 1-2 and 3-4 shifts (also of note in the factory manual in the 4spd trans section theres a troubleshooting table, but nowhere does it mention the harshness of the 2-3 shift ). oh well, quirks of old cars with old tech, i suppose theres a reason they went to the 3spd shortly after this car was sold.
busy with other projects for another week or two but will be back on the interior woodwork shortly
i think i put $60 at the begining of the weekend before we went out to take pictures, and that got us from around empty/reserve to just over 1/2 tank.
it has a 30 gallon tank so a full fillup would run around $130-140, and go to empty in around 300 miles at this rate. i think i remember reading some archived threads on RROC where guys were reporting 9-11mpg as normal. carbs are dialed in on this thing, so i cant imagine finding any more mpgs via a tuneup...
what were you seeing for mpg in yours?
those terrible rubber bumpers!
and i think you can see the self leveling suspension popping the rear end up when he opens the drivers door.
good indication of how soft the ride is though when hes flying down that dirt road
and a (still uncleaned) shot of the new fan shroud...
not all that exciting but im posting for reference as i havent seen any pics of the whole assembly online before.
one of the top tabs is cracked but should be an easy epoxy fix, and im thinking the whole thing should clean up well enough without any paint work, but might look good with a misting of semi-gloss if it isnt dark enough.
woodwork is just flying out of this thing... pictures of the inside all torn apart to come tomorrow...
ive been very pleasantly surprised by how robust and easy to take apart everything has been so far - no bothersome fragile plastic or other bits like you might see on a more modern car.
only thing that im hung up on now, and whether its even going to get done, is how to remove the rear window wood trim... not sure its doable safely with the window in, but i need to do some more investigating.
alright, a photo dump of the wood and interior tear down....
fairly easy work tearing this all out relative to some of the other projects weve done on this thing, and you get to do it without being on the ground, or getting super greasy
although theres a certain nerves factor in prying on some of these expensive pieces of wood and hoping they pop out... but everything came out in one piece.
it looks like the only thing that wont be getting refinished is the trim around the rear window, since that seems to require removing a little bit of the headliner at the back and undoing some screws, and is really delicate looking. this can always come out on its own later so there wont be any redoing any work if it needs to be done.
the only thing on the list to remove that still needs to be done is the wood at the base of the windshield... which requires popping the top of the dash off and i didnt get to that the other night.
anyway, onto the pics!
a good reason to pull the rear seat - more in depth cleaning required!
wanted to get the rear parcel shelf out to recover it in some fresh leather and get rid of those mounting holes one of the POs put in for some extra rear speakers...
i also found some extra speaker wires dangling around under the back seat... more things to remove!
actually really surprised to find the doors had plastic covers underneath the cards... i thought this was a later invention. but it makes sense, as the cards were thin wood and i can imagine they rot quick when exposed to moisture.
these will all be getting refreshed before everything is back together!
the wood caps are really pretty easy to remove, maybe 15-20 minutes for each door... pop the doorcard off, undo a couple bolts holding the caps down, and take out the door lock that goes through the wood
on a couple of the doors the door lock pin was a bit of a pain to remove, as with everything else on this car its connected to a linkage and removing it requires loosing it from the linkage... as these parts sit exposed to moisture in the door things were kind of sticky on a couple of the doors. all in all not too bad though
front doors are even easier than the rears, as there's no electrics inside the arm rest to deal with.
all the wood had numbers and initials/writing on it... no idea what any of it means but it was obviously hand made (and made for some nerve racking times prying on it to remove it!)
pretty good indication of what most of the wood looks like... darkened clear from UV exposure and flaking from lots of arms resting on it.
windshield surround trim coating was in really bad shape... these were the easiest bits of wood to remove, just a couple screws and the whole thing falls out. since this is always in the drivers face i think itll make for some huge improvements when it goes back in with proper coating on it
dash vertical surfaces all out...
the bit in front of the driver was kind of a bear to pry out as the wood is deep and fits over the gauges, so getting it out without having it catch on the gauges was tough. couple happy thoughts and quick prying got it out in one piece though... surprisingly the pieces are actually pretty thick too
worst of the clear cracking on the dash...
the lower trim pieces look like they're gonna have to stay in the car, since it seem to be glued/integrated into the wood dash shell. luckily the clear on those is in good shape since theyre at such a funny angle they probably didnt get much sun
this is unique to the early production cars, as i think in 69 or 70 they made the lower bit into a padded section to comply with safety standards... makes me appreciate the early cars more and more, having more wood on the dash and not having the ugly center console.
i need to get that ignition section out to service the lock, but that'll be a project for later before it all goes back together...
while its apart and im waiting on the wood to com back with fresh coating on it heres the todo list:
-fix the loose drivers side mirror
-get radio working/powering up, sort out speaker wiring... its all unplugged and from the poking around i did the other day it looks like the PO had a different setup in there, so we'll see whats up there
-new bulbs for all the gauges (apparently these are a generic bulb so this should be a cheap fix and well worth it)
-fix/service the clock
-send out the parcel shelf and bottom dash storage cubby to get resurfaced
-take off the steering wheel and put in the new shift selector that weve had sitting around... thisll fix the broken shift selector handle as well
-tighten up the loose turn signal selector, the contacts are kinda loose and it takes a magic touch to get it to actually blink the signals...
-track down a couple of the missing screws/odds and ends for the door cards
-hopefully fix the rear drivers side door inner handle, handle part works and moves the linkage, but the actual door lock doesnt seem to operate unless its activated from the outside... ive heard these can be a pain though so well see...
and do some deep cleaning while its all apart!
anyway, definitely be keeping busy while its apart!
thats it for now!
found a couple interesting sites the other night when looking for some shadow info...
some really cool old production line pics here:
got the clock out, realized its not a smiths unit (like the rest of the dash instruments...) looks just like this guy:
a german clock in a shadow
apparently this was original though... i see others being sold out of early shadows.
thinking it needs to go to an antique vdo specialist (based on some quick googling) but luckily it looks like something that some of the benz gauge specialist shops can handle since google seems to suggest they used these same brand clocks in some of the 60s/70s benz stuff.
found these guys
sounds like the ticket... upgraded and modernized for $85.
these arent apparently all that well known for their reliability either!
ive been in contact now with mike at jaguar clocks, and hes going to fix ours up for a reasonable price so all should be well there
some pics of the rest of the action from this weekend. things are getting boxed up now to head their various ways so this week will be pretty slow but here is the dash all taken apart (top roll and woodwork gone)
also tried to get a decent shot of the back of the dash... lotta wires all over the place, nothing like a modern car with organized harnesses. everything looks good back there though, tight connections, even the cloth wires are solid looking, it was nice to see that there werent any moisture issues or anything. windshield seal seems to be holding up well.
also going to take the time to replace all the bulbs while its apart... bit of work to get it to this point and it seems to be the only way to replace the bulbs
i keep hitting the seats with more coats of the leather rejuv stuff, seems to be helping a lot
i hit the top roll with it also, seemed to help bring some color back.
im beginning to realize now just how much nicer the inside will be with properly coated woodwork, after taking out the dash top wood bits i think the various stain colors and whatnot will really look great when its all back together
another quick update/to do list ...
got the wood passed on to the proper folks last weekend, so theyll be getting that taken care of sometime in december/end of the year.
just got our matched spray cans in the mail, so ill have materials to tackle the exterior paint issues (hopefully, at the very least cover up the primered spot under the rear bumper).
clock also still needs to get in the mail to get serviced... the guy it needs to go to is in central jersey though, and i havent been able to contact him since about a day before the storm came in hopefully everything is alright, ive been holding off sending it until i hear hes back home...
i have a couple panels to take to the upholstery shop to get new leather put on (rear shelf and lower cubby below the glovebox) and will be replacing all the light bulbs in the dash soon. unfortunately everything will have to sit torn apart until the wood panels come back as they're the first thing that needs to go back in before its put back together.
i need to finish taking off the steering wheel and tighten up the turn signal stalk and put on our new shifter assembly
also on the list for the winter: fix the front right brake caliper, and all new brake pads. new battery will also be getting tossed in for good measure, the current one is ooold.
and if i have time later in the winter id like to tackle the underhood rust spots and repaint the bay... but thats lower on the list.
all in all it looks like itll be a much cheaper and easy going winter than last year
in the meantime its gonna sit for a few weeks while i finish some other more pressing pre-winter projects on the rover and merc, pics to come as i start checking things off the list
an update on the clock front, got in touch with mike last night and he just got power back on at his place.
sounds like he's alright and back in business now, so the clock will be headed his way this week
since there hasnt really been much action on this thing in the last few weeks (ive been side tracked doing some maintenance on the benz and rover) figured id share a few more of matt's amazing film shots he scanned in a little while ago. i think these are from various stages over the last year or so, some from the cooling system work, some from the last of the brake hydraulics, etc etc
i really like these last two for some reason... great candids
havent bumped this one in a while... but we have a quick update on the woodwork.
got word last week that theyve got it all unpacked and are laying out a game plan. hope to be on the phone with them this weekend to sort out the details of what/how the refinishing is going to go down in order to maintain as much originality as possible.
were getting an incredible hookup on all of that work, so im not too worried about waiting for it, as it sounds like itll be done right and at the right price
i spent the last month out of town and moving, so not much got done but on my list for the next couple months are taking care of some more minor maintenance items and prepping the interior for the wood work returning.
also having 0 luck getting copies made of our front footwell carpets... why wont you take my money?!?! thats fairly low on the priority list at the moment and doesnt need to be done along with the woodwork, but once the wood is back it will be the only "glaring" fault on the inside so it would be nice to get it tidy
yup, you got it right, theyre wool (or some such) pieces, one for each side, that pop out of the car with little buttons. and a seperate piece for the trans tunnel front half. we'd also ideally replace the vertical end pieces that go on the side kick panels as well. same material on all of them though, with leather edges on each panel. nothing really exotic, in shape or material, as far as im aware (though matching the stock color may be a trick). availability should be good from british specialists as it was material also used in other higher end brit cars of its day, or so im led to believe.
i tried contacting one of the reputable shops that does high end brit car interiors (and happens to be local) with no luck - no returned phone calls or emails. itll probably end up being sourced from one of those shops you mentioned - ill have to check the club magazine again for contacts - but yeah the prices werent too outrageous.
also, and this is what i REALLY found strange - is none of the RR junkyards seem to ever stock carpet i can understand its probably often damaged in cars they receive, but why not keep even just the few good pieces. very strange....
my main concern was having something that as closely resembles the stock material, in color and feel, as possible. id be happy with a decent used example, but cant seem to find that either.
got word back this weekend that the woodwork is coming along. theyve got most of it stripped and should be starting on refinishing soon. theyre taking pictures along the way as well, so look forward to those
work on my end will begin again in earnest this weekend.
as promised... this weekend's updates.
rebuilt the gear selector and the turn signal switch cluster. greased everything up, got a new bulb into the gear indicator, and put it all back together:
aand... gear selector put back together.
lot of wires coming up to the gear selector switch... they really could have used some high density connectors here instead of soldering each connection
some nice corrosion on the turn signal contacts... might explain why that was kind of iffy before.
took that all apart and greased it up, cleaned the contacts as well
then the fun of pulling the ignition switch
same story here, lots of wires individually connected...
and this guy is headed off to get rebuilt soon, so the damn key isnt so finicky to turn everytime you start the car
and how things are sitting for now...
starting to look like the car is getting parted out
and another picture for kicks... crossed posted from my mg thread
the RR looks huge next to that thing
my plan this weekend was to get all the brake calipers off the car and boxed up, but it looks like the AN caps i need to finish that job wont be here until sometime next week... so this weekend (if i have enough time off work) will be a painting and polishing weekend... to hopefully take care of that rear section thats showing primer, and repaint the fuel door to get rid of some scratches.
we'll see how it goes
a blessing and a curse IMO...
after dealing with the throttle/trans/choke linkage, and seeing all the various semi-wear items in the trans gear selector linkage, i dont think its always the best. very cool in its period correctness, but if i were making a "new" silver shadow id avoid as much of that as possible
it does make for good positive feedback what with the clunking and locking things into place when you interact with the various inputs, but from a packaging, durability and service/adjustment standpoint... electronics are a hands down winner in my book.
now, if youre talking about a much more simple car, that they didnt try to pack full of "comfort" features, id agree wholeheartedly
now for some pictures of my least favorite automotive activity... paint/bodywork
this has been on my list for quite a while but we finally had a nice break in the weather last weekend. the goal was to do something, anything, about the exposed primer layers under the rear bumper. so, heres my best attempt... not quite done (needs a few more layers of paint, some more wet sanding and a good buffing to match the shiny-ness of the rest of the car, but its close enough)
right after masking
a little bit of wet sanding and cleaning and its ready to get some primer...
after a couple base layers of color...
the color match is pretty close, just a hair lighter than whats there. itll be close enough for the location though, so far so good... well see how it all buffs out and whatnot but im happy thus far.
i test fit the bumper the other night also and i think with how shiny the parts around it are, your eyes wont be drawn to the paint work so much, and anything will be an upgrade from that primer!
while the interior is out i also wanted to take care of the last bit of the brakes that needed attention - the stuck front passenger caliper. doing some research it seemed to make sense to get them all redone at once, so... onto pulling the calipers.
only got through the fronts tonight (didnt have a lot of time) but everything went really smoothly. hoping to tackle the rear two this weekend, then theyre all off to canada to get redone (along with the ignition switch).
i had a couple brief flashbacks to feb '12...
thankfully both front rotors look like they're still true, none of the dragging on the one side seems to have warped anything. the pads probably needed replacing anyway from sitting around for decades - leaving some of those oddly colored markings after use - but no ridges or weird grooves in the rotors
from what ive read replacing them is rather a chore, and i havent been brave enough to look up prices ha
using these little guys to block off the rest of the brake system when the calipers are off... saving as much of the unicorn blood as possible, especially now that supplies are getting more scarce.
3/8x24 AN plugs, a lot cheaper than RR363
and this is the caliper that started it all... front right, front-most. outside half of it is almost completely frozen.
i think it actually ends up being a pretty significant amount of stopping power - the rotors are huge, though the pad surface area isnt, but i guess thats why everything is doubled up.
both front calipers (front-most on the front wheel) work on one circuit, and both rear calipers (rear-most on the front wheel) work together with 1/2 of the rear wheel's calipers.
the car basically has 3 entirely separate braking systems (with the third being a non-assisted system that acts on one half of the rear wheels caliper).
hard to describe but theres a hydraulic diagram i posted somehwere in this thread showing the routing... its complicated
im leaving the rotors, im probably going to get a dial indicator on them before saying for 100% certain that they arent warped, but i definitely dont feel any ridges despite how uneven the coloring is. and at first glance they appear to be true.
RR363 is ~$25-30/qt. the car takes ~2 gallons of the stuff if you flush the whole system. last time i bought a case, castrol was in the middle of a production shutdown and the shop i got it from wasnt sure if they were going to get more.
i think i have a couple quarts left from last year that i can use to top off, but im not sure if i can even get more if i wanted it. thats probably the single biggest turn off for folks on this car, the random availability and huge expense of the brake fluid.
castrol has also been really cagey with releasing MSDS sheets so that others could mix their own, but as some citroen DIYers have apparently found mixing castor oil with dot3 fluid in some particular ratio produces almost the same stuff - i dont know if many are running that in their shadows but i know some on the rroc-aus forums appear to be and arent having issues.
the main deal was it needed to have the properties of brake fluid, but also prevent from foaming and lubricate the brake pumps, which straight dot3/4 is unable to do.
yeah it seems the best bet is finding some reliable information on how to make a good home-brew version using dot3 fluid as the base.
i think the rroc-aus guys are onto something but i havent done enough reading to know if theyve found any long term side affects.
id also like to hunt down the citroen information from europe to do some reading there as well... as you can be sure the citroen guys arent paying $30/qt for their cars
we did a full flush after the brake pumps and hoses were swapped. plenty of old dirty fluid came out then.
and as a good sign, nice clean fluid was coming out when i cracked the lines last night... so it hasnt picked up any more hidden contaminants.
bleeding the brakes is actually really interesting, since theres no master cylinder to build pressure in, as the brake pedal movement just releases already pressurized fluid from the accumulators. what you do is apply the brakes with the engine running (brake pumps active) and run around to the corners of the car cracking the calipers. the extremely high pressure fluid pushes air out in seconds, so bleeding the car last time was really quick, you just have to idle it on the lift with the wheels off.
got the rear calipers off, everything is nearly ready to head up north and get made fresh again.
getting the rears off required a bit more persuasion than the fronts did, and looked to actually be in much worse shape (i was expecting the opposite).
the right ebrake linkage was nearly frozen shut, and the left caliper's piston seals are wasted. about as flexible as dried leaves. really nasty.
the other side looked a lot more fresh, despite looking like it hadnt ever been off the car.
anyway, as it goes with old brake lines, more broken stuff ... but this one looks like an easy one to recreate (and i had more fed hill line on the way anyway, since a couple of the front caliper short interconnecting hard lines needed redoing, so not a major set back)
onto the pics!
right before i snapped the top inlet line into a couple pieces
a lot better (actually flexible) despite looking original, and the mounting hardware being a lot more stuck
these short guys from the front calipers were getting remade anyway... one of them looked sort of kinked, and the other had a nearly frozen nut
shot down the right rear corner, you can see the cap at the soft line to stop fluid leaking. another upside to this particular line breaking is that access is easy to the whole thing. a lot more trivial than the rear suspension hard lines that broke last year. nothing to fish this one around, it just drops right in
and the broken bit
luckily still have lots of the nuts left from last time!
i knew buying that brake flaring tool was a good idea!
Not really anything as detailed as this one, I posted a thread here in TCL when I first got it, and updated that a couple times... And I've posted a few pics in the land rover thread over in the 4x4 forum here.
My ultra base model 1 is gonna be a poor comparison if he's shopping for a D2 though.
And in RR news, it now has a fan shroud. I did some test polishing on the new paint and I think it's gonna look pretty good with the bumper back on.
Pics to come tomorrow or Monday...
my D1 is actually for sale now. need to trim the fleet a bit before the tdi arrives...
anyway, a couple pics of the fan shroud from last weekend.
not much else going on to take pictures of... the brakes and the ignition switch are all in canada about to get rebuilt now.
i got the parts to remake all the hardlines for this round, and the paintwork is all wrapped up and just needs to be polished.
i hope to have all that done this weekend so i can put the rear bumper back on and be ready with everything it needs when the brakes and ignition switch show up again.
weve got good weather just around the corner now so im anxious to get everything back together so we can enjoy it
couple quick pics of the car as it sits now
borrowing a rad wide angle lens for a few days and thought id take advantage... really makes shooting in the shop much nicer!
end result isnt perfect, but it looks a lot better especially with the bumper back on, and it buffed out ok.
as i think i mentioned earlier the new color is a hair on the light side but... no more primer! so ill count that as a win
now the wait for the brake and interior parts....
interior parts are now at the upholstery shop. i took all the front carpet and kick panel sections down there as well. theyre working up a couple quotes and checking their sources for color matching, particularly on the carpet sections... (my quick search didnt yield many sources for green wool carpet)
should know in about a week or so what they come up with
none of it is rocket science, and with the right tools i think most reasonably handy folks could figure it out. i wont lie though theres definetly some added stress at times knowing that if something gets broken the replacement is potentially rare or expensive, but im mostly gotten over that as time has gone by and weve sort of learned our way around the car a bit better.
i wouldnt try this with a simple socket set and jackstands in your driveway though!
no pics for now, waiting on parts to return before things start going back together.
i have some minor wiring troubleshooting to do while the interior is out, mostly centering around the radio and speakers. which reminds me, i need to go buy a new batterytoo
just got word back this morning from the upholstery shop that theyve worked up some more detailed quotes on the carpet and rear shelf and dash cubby work.
he found some good sources for original carpet... ill be headed down there to check out some samples on saturday and they'll get started after we pick the right stuff. im hoping for a quick turnaround there.. pics to come as things progress, maybe this weekend from the sample selection, just to keep the thread alive
Yeah I guess it's hard to appreciate how advanced some of the tech in these older cars was.
Still haven't run our new clock yet but we should be getting close to putting the interior back together..
I stopped by the upholstery shop Saturday and picked out the carpet and trimming materials. Should be a really good match, and they'll be done in the proper Wilton wool.
Also should be bolting the brakes back on in a week or two as those parts start to come back.
Nothing new to take pictures of yet...
edit, because iOS auto correct
just browsing ebay tonight and wow...
this popped up.
that color combo!
woodwork is back!
still a lot to do, but its all manageable stuff. one door is completely done, both vanity mirrors are in, and the left front door is nearly finished just ran out of time yesterday.
still need a couple parts back before the dash goes back together, but the dash top and windshield surround is going to look incredible. it turned out amazing
anyway, onto the progress...
everyone take pictures
new vapor barriers are clear 10mil vinyl so theyre hard to see, but there is one on there
one door, all the way done! with freshly polished shiny bits as well.
front door barrier and wood is on, but needs the door panel and trimmings.
its taking a bit more time to build the barriers, but it should all come together in another few days once i can find a coupe free nights to work on it.
and, as a refresher, heres what it used to look like...
i clearly wasnt the only one taking pictures this time around, and i didnt take many closeups of the woodwork so ill see if one of the other guys can post some shots to the thread as well
yeah its great seeing it all come together. its been apart so long we were starting to forget what it looked like! ha
ill keep the suspense building on the dash pieces until they get installed, but needless to say these guys did an incredible job.
the match is pretty close - unlikely that anyone will notice in photos - and the staining (i assume it was the staining, i dont know much about woodworking) really brought so much depth out of the natural patterns on the wood, it looks amazing.
the parts that go around the dash top and windshield, i just cant say enough about how great that turned out. that part was in especially bad shape and the difference is really striking.
the downside of building new vapor barriers means the whole car smells like a freshly refinished bathroom, but i think once everything dries itll be back to its usual old library smell
another quick update....
our rebuilt ignition switch is back now, all the freshly redone brake parts should be here early/mid next week, and i hope to be picking up the redone carpet and interior panels by next weekend.
plan for the weekend is to track down as many new dash bulbs as i can, and get the dash and interior put all the way back together. there'll be plenty of pics to share after thats all together
so far all the doors are finished, except the drivers door which still needs the panel and trimmings put on.
also managed to figure out why the rear drivers side door was inoperable from the inside - id heard lots of stories about door lock mechanisms going bad and how expensive/hard to find they are - turns out ours just had a linkage piece that had been knocked loose. after that all the door handles and locks work properly, and the interior is really starting to come together!
id also like to sort out why the radio wasnt working, before the speakers get hidden again.
it looks like someone had added a different head unit and ran two speaker wires to the rear shelf (which would explain the random holes and fading on that panel) in the past so im guessing its a matter of just tracking down the right power wires - hopefully not too much of a rats nest back there... aftermarket radio installs in old cars always scare me.
anyway, stay tuned, good stuff coming over the next week
interior got put back together this weekend. everything looks amazing, and the ignition switch actually works smoothly now.
i put new bulbs in all of the gauges while everything was apart, so im hoping its a little less dim at night now
need to hook up the battery and do a quick check to make sure i got the wires on the ignition switch back on right, and take some pictures of the finished interior... should be doing that tonight.
brakes should be here this week (along with possibly the carpet parts)
stay tuned for more pics, and maybe even some driving shots at the end of the coming weekend if the brakes all go back together
i would have taken pics as i was finishing up, but it was really late on saturday and i was pretty beat already. theyll be worth the wait though, i hope hah
yeah im more about the mechanical soundness as well, but its sometimes fun to see things improving visually as well.
i generally tend to hate interior work but this hasnt been nearly as bad as i was expecting. its a simple enough car once you know where to pry that it comes apart and goes back together without a ton of work.
i think i could have the dash stripped again in an hour or so now that i know where all the hardware and clips are hiding.
progress has been in spurts as ive had time, i consolidated my daily drivers into one car in the hopes of having more time to work on the projects, but still somehow manage to always be busy with other things.... so my rapid advancement isnt nearly as rapid as id have liked
hoping thatll change over the next couple weeks as life settles down a bit. luckily i dont have a house to do spring time yardwork or chores on
this page is in desperate need of some pics!
heres where its at now... excuse the lack of front carpet.
also, i have to say using a heavy duty stapler on this woodwork was easily one of the most stressful parts of the project in recent memory. was really worried i was going to crack something
i dont think we had any detailed "before" shots of these corners, but suffice to say the finish was in really really bad shape...
more to come soon
had a bit of free time today to go through and clean things up and run a quick electrical test now that the interior is all back together.
its really nice to have back lighting for the gear indicator and the lighting for all the gauges works.
the ticking of the clock caught me off guard when i first hooked up the battery, its nice to see that working now also. rebuilding the turn signal switch seems to have made that a bit more reliable to use as well, still a bit looser than id like but it works every time now.
and the big headline.... the radio works now!
i have no idea what any of the buttons do (they seem to switch between medium and long-medium wavelengths from what i could decipher) but i managed to find one AM station that came in through the metal shop walls and the volume, balance/fader all work.
was really creepy for some reason listening to talk radio out of a single speaker...
anyway just waiting on brake parts to come in now, should only be a couple more days, and to pick up the front carpets and whatnot from the interior shop.
hoping next weekend we get some road test time - it looks like the weather is going to start to turn for the worse so we'll see how it goes...
just got word the calipers and pads should be here tonight.
hopefully get those installed along with some new hard lines in another couple days.
plenty of good pics to come - both of the new parts and hopefully some stuff from jim of the teardown of the old stuff
been a really busy week so far, but heres a couple shots of what ive managed to get started on...
all the new brake stuff - only thing still "used" are the castings, i think everything else has been replaced at this point.
seems everything to do with the rear brakes is a lot more expensive than the fronts... the main pads, the park brake pads, the pistons, etc
one corner done
thats likely to be the most difficult corner as both hardlines needed replacing...
all the calipers and hardlines are on, and the brakes are partially bled (was having some disagreements with the choke and getting it started yesterday )
and the new front carpet and interior panels are here... and they look amazing!
ill have some pics tonight
turns out the fuel pump was being a bit sticky as well, quick fix with some hammer blows had that freed up and its back to running so i could finish the bleed.
anyway, couple shots of the rears in place...
didnt get pics of the new interior parts yet as the car is still on the lift and hard to get in and out of, so ill save the final interior pics until tomorrow or thursday when ive got a chance to get it back on the ground and the new parts installed.
busy weekend wrapping everything up...
installed the new front carpets and took a few minutes to polish the hubcaps before it hit the road
after on the bottom
spent quite a bit of time dialing in the transmission linkage back to where it should have been, and put some miles on it driving around town this weekend. trans is shifting pretty smoothly again, i think about as smoothly as one could hope for the 4spd, and the brakes feel really good. it can actually perform a panic stop now
still a few minor tweaks to make and some more trans fine tuning to do but nothing that cant be done while its still being used.
it should be getting some serious mileage over the next week or so, provided the weather holds up
There's a few from last fall that I reposted on the first page and they're also buried somewhere in the thread.
Weather unfortunately hasn't been that great, and isn't looking like it'll improve anytime soon, so any more overall pics will have to wait a little bit...
I had wanted to enter it in a local classics show this weekend but the weather sort of scared me off, we ended up just driving it around town a bit to stretch its legs.
Looks like our warm running issues (based on gauge readings anyway, top hose and t stat housing always seemed reasonable) were solved with the addition of the fan shroud. And it really is pleasant to drive now with the new brakes and smoother shifts.
a wrap up on the weekend (or at the last day i was around for)...
we ended up getting the RR towed home due to an exhaust leak.
the drivers side head is newer - as noted earlier in the thread when i had the valve covers off - and has some emissions ports just above the exhaust manifold. someone at some point sloppily put some freeze plugs in here.
several holes already have plugs securely in them. one popped out at the shop right as we were going to start tuning the car late last year, so we plugged it, and another was already plugged before we got our hands on the car.
late in the weekend another popped out... i mistook it for an exhaust leak so i brought a pile of tools to sort the exhaust clamps and tighten the manifold but sadly didnt bring the tap and plug that we'd used to fix those holes in the past.
at any rate, it ended up (after a very heated and colorful exchange with a really late and extremely toothless tow truck driver ) taking a several hour flat bed ride back to the shop.
a bit of a downer ending to an otherwise succesful weekend, but of all of the things that could have gone wrong, this was a pretty minor one (and one that will take about 10 minutes and $2 to fix).
we also did the math on the mileage, and it ended up working out to about a 12.5mpg average for the weekend.
heres the part that needed a plug... you can see the hastily inserted freeze plug (there appear to have been threads in these holes at some point, but theyve all been pretty smashed up) on the left, and on the right you can see one of the other plugs we put in previously.
another quick update
looks like sitting for a bit after some use loosened up the cork gasket for the brake reservoir, as its developed a little seeping issue with some brake fluid escaping past the seal where the tank top and bottom meet.
going to order new gaskets for that (if i can ever remember in the morning before albers closes!) and try to double check the tank level again when i have the top off.
probably due to my not tightening and retightening the cork gasket after it was used i think its been loose-ish the whole time but just now got worse from sitting (as a lot of the fluid returns from the system back into the tank when it depressurizes).
things have been pretty quiet lately with the RR...
i took care of a brake fluid leak that i created by overfilling the reservoir prior to the wedding (theyre serious when they say dont overfill!)
i had misread the instructions as having to fill to the max line while/shortly after running the car, but really the level shouldnt ever cross the max line. as the system depressurizes after sitting the fluid level can rise quite a bit, which is what it did...
anyway, new cork gaskets and dropping the level by 1/3 quart or so fixed all that. ill have to keep an eye on it and drop it a bit more if needed.
it also made it out around town this weekend, and we checked out a local car show. this weekend was also its warmest stop/go driving (~80-85f) and it handled the temps well.
honestly it seems like a mix.
the two best resources ive found for technical info have been Jim (who did all of the rebuilding on the hydraulic components, and waterpump) and the fellow who ive bought some used parts from, both of those guys maintain a fleet of these things and have likely forgotten more about RRs than ill ever know.
there are some members who dont do a lot of their own work but it seems everyone around here is really handy. not what youd expect on the surface of it, but it does make fixing these things (when youre new to them) a lot easier having that many resources to lean on
now i just need to get it rented out for photoshoots and whatnot
there was a couple near my place last night getting some photos taken in front of an old ice cream truck, which got me thinking....
a quick cell phone shot from yesterday
and to bring over a little bit of discussion from the RROC forum - the car has had some funny coolant gauge readings when we drive around in stop and go traffic, and especially now since its being used a bit in the warmer (80-85 or so) weather.
i had a chance to take some readings last year with my IR temp gun to see what was actually going on, i believe after our drive around town to take photos last fall, and typically saw somewhere around the thermostat opening temperature when shooting the thermostat housing. this was despite seeing the needle in the upper area of the "normal" part of the temp scale.
well the last couple days of use, and the driving we did to the car show the other weekend, have all been a lot warmer than when i did the testing with the IR gun.
driving home from work yesterday - about 30 minutes at freeway speeds and generally up hill, then about another 10 minutes in heavy traffic - in 85 degree ambients brought the temp gauge to new highs (near the end of the "normal" range, into the lower part of "hot"). so as soon as i pulled in i grabbed the gun and took some readings and much to my surprise:
~185 on the tstat housing, 180 on the radiator top tank, and about 175-180 or so at the back of the passenger side head where the gauge sensor should be.
lot of stress over nothing i suppose - its pretty unnerving watching that needle climb - but thankfully the essentially all-new cooling system is working as its supposed to!
winter project might be taking a closer look at the resistance curve of the sensor thats in there (though i hear the sensors on these early cars are difficult to reach) and maybe looking into a replacement.
it just looks like it has too wide of a range of values for the "normal" operating temp
rolls has mostly been sitting the last little while as ive been busy with other things, but the girlfriend and i went to a halloween party last weekend in some 60s-ish garb and wanted to enjoy the dry weather weve been having recently so we brought the rolls along for more period correctness
i like how the black and white during nighttime turned out, so we might have to do this again with a more entertaining background later this winter, something more exciting than the shop
car is also due for an oil and filter change before i park it for the rainy season...
not really, but i did confirm that the temp sensor is a real bear to reach - buried on the back side of the head against the firewall part way down the motor... so itd be kind of a challenge to reach and cap off quickly, and im not too keen on just yanking it for testing purposes given how hard it is to reach.
however, it looks to be that the car wont overrun the large middle "normal" middle area, so i may just be assuming a modern sense of accuracy in the gauge that it doesnt really deserve... from what i can tell the temperatures at the thermostat housing appear to track a normally functioning tstat, and arent of concern, and the middle-high end of the white "normal" band on the temp gauge represents a safe operating range based on the temp readings with the IR gun.
i think if we ever start to see it creep far outside the "normal" band it would be cause for concern but at this point as long as its inside middle band of the gauge we're in the clear.
so, no new developments, other than more data points (with far lower ambients) and the gauge showing the same behaviour as before in nearly double the outside temperatures. the readings at the tstat seem to confirm that its safe, and with the readings on the gauge repeatable at 40-50F ambients and 70-80F ambients, im fairly convinced its showing us that 180-185F at the tstat is just on the higher end of the middle part of the gauge
im going through and doing some cleanup and checking a few nagging items off the list before winter comes around and the car sits, and ive been troubleshooting the inoperative drivers side dome light.
after chasing some wires around and doing some basic checks, i found myself looking for a "d post connector". ive never heard of a d post or d pillar in anything other than a station wagon, so i thought id do a google search...
this came up on google images
google seems to generally make me think theyre refering to what i would call the c pillar, or the rearmost pillar on a sedan, when they say d post.
further sleuthing is required, but i might take some of those panels apart again to see if i can find this mystery connector (which most likely has some corrosion)
ill have some pictures of these random maintenance bits soon
couple random shots, oil filter housing and a torn down door switch
nothing new really since the last update. i did some more digging around on the door switch issue and we need to finish that up
life, and the MG project, sort of got in the way...
since the last update i ended up moving a few hours away from the car and starting a new job, so it was a busy winter/spring.
however, there are plans being made at the moment to bring the car to my new place for the summer, since the co-owner also lives nearby... we're thinking of doing this fairly soon, and finishing up the door switch stuff (just to make it easier to use on a more regular basis) and giving it a good cleaning. in any case itll be relocating for the warm weather soon, definitely expect pictures and updates when that happens.
that also means itll be getting used on a much more regular basis while weve got it here, so there should be lots more photos to come this summer
wow i had no idea itd been since mid may the last time i updated this until i went looking for it tonight where did the summer go?!
at any rate we had some time to dive a bit into the electrical system, and following some directions from a few RROC members based on the inoperative driver's side door lamps, it was suggested that we check out the relay board up front near the heater box as thats apparently a common source of inexplicable electrical issues. and it was also a good time to clean up some of the other rag-tag wiring under the hood, most notably the heater valve solenoid wiring under the brake reservoir that looked like it had been chewed on
a few pictures...
we also took some time to extend the wiring out to the driver's side door switches, i had noticed before when taking those out to rebuild them that there was barely enough slack to pull them out and properly clamp the wires into the switch.
and the job of getting to the relay box. this wasnt made to be easily serviceable it seems, and they made it barely weatherproof, so it does a good job of collecting any condensation or water that happens to get down to the firewall shelf
first undoing the heater pipe and the blower motor
then the blower motor housing comes off. at which point we vacuumed out about a pound of mouse turds and old insulate scraps from behind the heater pipe and blower housing... smelled kind of like a barn yard if you put your face too close to it
quite a few minutes later - after wrestling with the relay box connectors and trying not to break any wires in the process
not in as terrible of shape as what i was lead to believe some of them get to be from sitting around...
you can see the little paper sheet under the relays that has guide holes so you know which pins are used for which relay position. we put numbers on there just in case...
top side of the board, looking kind of scuzzy but after some cleaning with mild scotchbright and a pick, all of the connections tested out fine and there werent any breaks or failures on the printed circuits themselves. so thats good news.
three different kinds of relays in total, all tested out ok
we had to take one apart (easy to pop the cover off after bending back the small crimps) to verify why it had a "dead" lead. turns out it was marked the same as the others in that group but for whatever reason that leg just went through a dummy hole on the actual board connections, and internally in the relay it wasnt hooked to anything. very strange. but it was for the headlights (if i remember right) and those work fine.
anyway everything tested out fine with no faults found, but at least this jobs done. put everything together with a good dose of dielectric grease after a good cleaning so it shouldnt have corrosion buildup again
i have a feeling our issues with the drivers lamps is elsewhere in the harness, likely someplace in the interior but at least all of the various pieces appear to test out fine individually, the light just isnt getting power! hah
but if thats the worst of our issues, so be it...
i forgot to throw the RROC window stickers on it, but thatll happen next time
that would have been a pretty massive rework of the whole board, or more likely eliminating it altogether.
if you can see on the bottom side of the board the little clusters of male spades - those all feed into the old school "high density" connectors, that then split out to the various relays via the thick printed traces.
somehow all of those high density connectors would have needed to be broken out to some sort of distribution board or series of daisy chained wires in order to feed modern relays. doable certainly, but probably more trouble that it might be worth as everything here seemed to be working.
what im not sure of, and its likely totally different, is what the later shadow2 or 80s cars did or where their relay board sat. its likely that the electronics were completely different, as for a shadow this car is fairly simple just by being an early production car, but at least for the mechanical bits there have been a few places where we've been able to borrow parts from later shadows in order to do somewhat stealthy worthwhile updates.
the RR had a big weekend this weekend. went a really long road trip, in a trailer im fairly certain that truck got better mpg pulling it and the trailer than it would have gotten on its own.
we'll have shots of it on the hoosiers soon
and a quick one of it out in the wild...
sounds like the cooling system handled the 90+ deg weather in traffic without any hiccups
id like to get some more interesting shots of it now that its out of the shop. and we got some great news from a magazine last week in relation to this car more info on that one once i find out more details.
thanks for the kind words guys.
should be some cool updates coming up
almost forgot the new stickers
coming up on a month now of running around town and in traffic and its been going well.
had a bit of a scare with the charging system the other week. turned on all of the lights and the alternator light came on. turned out to be just a loose connector on the voltage regulator, but i was a bit worried we'd have to do some quick service in the parking garage. at least its a fairly easy system to troubleshoot.
also the wipers are working well now, as its been out in some rain. the motors were making some noise before but i think with some use theyve freed up a bit.
still on my list to get some proper rolling shots of it out in the wild while the weather is nice...
and for a random side not... i think i found the coolest RR photo online last week
picked up our first bit of hardware a couple weeks ago
second place at a small car show, the monster truck just behind got first.
also it seems the extended use may be taking a toll on one of the brake accumulators. the number of pumps until the warning light comes on, with the engine off, is down to around 40 or so. as i recall thats around threshold for a recharge. and unlike the other accumulator, that one doesnt seem to hold pressure overnight. will definitely be keeping an eye on that
and on the annoying-but-minor issues list, the drivers side rear door is really squeaky and makes some rather undignified noises as you operate the door
on the recommendation of the RROC guys ive got some boeing grease that should help that out.
we spent a good part of the afternoon/evening yesterday holding up traffic on various bridges around portland and taking rolling shots. i think we got a few really incredible ones, and some im pretty excited about in a few stationary locations as well.
a cellphone preview...
i hope to have them online in the next day or two
and the car ran great all day in some pretty warm weather. also the first time ive had a chance to drive behind it. turns out it doesnt smell too bad for a car from the 60s once its underway
edit, however.. we didnt make it to this
itd definitely be cheaper to buy a sorted one, or one that only needs some minimal work, from an RROC member than to bring one back to life.
heres the whole album
i wasnt the only one taking pictures, so hopefully we can get some of the others posted as well
couple other shots, not mine this time
will have more when we pack it up for the winter in a few weeks
an update on this...
i dont know if anyone on here is a hemmings sports and exotic car mag subscriber, but we got a little one page blurb about this car in the "my car and me" section of the december issue!
i dont know if its on news stands yet, but we're really excited to see it printed. they told us it would appear in an issue but we werent sure which one at that time.
unfortunately we didnt have the most recent set of photos at the time, but its really exciting to see it in print!
this was a pretty impromptu couple of shots, that got cut off by the rain, but i really liked the colors
usually this has a ton of equally colorful leaves on the parking lot as well but it looks like someone cleaned up today
more to come when we pack it up for the winter
its basically a rolls anyway
a few pictures of the haul back last weekend. i think i violated cell phone laws in a couple states, but there were a couple interesting ones from the road
sunrise in pdx driving out to the truck/trailer
as a side note, i think this was the coldest weather this thing has been outside in. drove fine once it wasnt stone cold, but there was definitely some hesitation as it was first warming up.
dont mind the boost gauge, i was coasting due to heavy traffic
and i think we already confirmed it before, but it does in fact get better mileage being towed.
so there it is, it survived the summer in pdx.
thats a wrap on 2014
i got sidelined from the long week of finishing up the MG that i had planned over the holidays due to some incorrect fittings, so i set about catching up on some winter to-do things i had set aside for the RR. and im pleased to say its basically done!
the radio has two working speakers now - loose wires at the rear speaker
the super squeaky drivers side rear door is no longer ear-splittingly loud and just quietly shuts like its supposed to - turns out the rear door hinges have 5 pivot points, with most of them being in the lower hinge. they were sort of hidden inside the door but some beoshield T9 in there fixed that up after soaking overnight
really awesome stuff!
the wire on the oil level sensor cracked and was disintegrating after the oil pan job a while back, that needed to be replaced. that works now with the dash switch for checking the level
the nails were backing out of most of the felt trim on the backside of the wood doortoppers, so the woodwork needed to come back out and have that fixed
but, the really big job i had set aside a long time ago for "when we get around to it" was learning more about the hvac and figuring out why we didnt have any heat or air blowing through the car. it also had a pretty bad draft blowing through the passenger side footwell on the highway.
nearly all of those mysteries were solved!
onto the pictures...
oil pan things:
nasty old wire end, the rubber boot completely plasticized
digging back in to fix the nails for the felt trim
what was happening before the fix
we were worried that these would catch on the glass and scratch things up, luckily crisis avoided...
as for the hvac...
the blower motors were sort of hanging on their mounts, and didnt sit right. but they also werent getting power initially either. the lack of power just turned out to be a missing fuse wire. easy enough, and the wiring itself appears to check out to both motors so that was a good sign as well.
i need to order more of this wire, but i have a hunch that because of how the blower motors were sitting in the heater box ducts that the previous owner must have pulled the fuse to avoid them being kicked on because theyd rub on the housing if they shook around without any mounts. that or they needed to replace the link on something else and robbed the blower motor fuse wire
i dont know if ive posted any pictures of this before, but i thought this was kind of a cool shot of the fusebox, with the slideout guide.
after making sure the blower motor wiring was ok, tested the motors. they spun great, no bad bearings or weird noises and they seemed to be balanced
and im not sure if these blower motor mounts are even available, but i need to call albers on monday and see. all but one are wasted on both motors.
if not, ill have to think of a backup plan. ill do the motor flange to heater box seals while ive got things apart, since the motors are a little awkward to wiggle out of the heaterbox, especially on the brake reservoir side.
now for the interesting parts of the hvac system - the car doesnt have any physical link between the hvac controls and the various flaps on the heater box, everything is controlled via little electrical actuators, not unlike a modern car but these are old school metal gear driven adjustable metal linkage pieces
the system is also divided into two separate circuits - the upper half and the lower half. the switches for each half control the temperature and the airflow
and here are the switches, in typically well labeled 60s british tradition. twist for temperature, push/pull for airflow. oh, and the blower motor speed is set by an unlabeled slider switch hidden just above the drivers left knee.
because of all of those various controls from each switch, there are 6 (maybe 7, but i think 6... i forget now) actuators - two for airflow into the box for the upper half (you can see these in engine bay pictures right behind the distributor), a coolant valve for coolant flow into the heatercore (right under the brake fluid reservoir), an actuator for a/c flow (right ahead of the brake res.), a recirc flap (pictured below), and a footwell temperature flap actuator also by the passengers toes.
all of the actuators work smoothly and didnt seem to catch or jerk through their motion... good news... but the ones for the a/c and the coolant flow into the heatercore are kind of noisy. theyre geared really high so they make a lot of internal rotations to make a full sweep of the actuator linkage.
i found out this afternoon that the actuators are interchangeable, which will be handy for hunting down spares, but im not sure yet if they can be popped open for any kind of service or grease. im sure the noisy ones are just loud due to dried up grease or some kind of internal rust from sitting. if i can hunt down a spare or two for reasonable money i plan on popping open one of the loud ones and seeing whats in there.
anyway, this fallen recirc flap was the source of the cold air draft on the highway. it fell off its pivots inside the heaterbox and had jammed up the actuator.
this opens right into the outlet of the passenger side blower motor
this was fun to reseat, through the passenger side blower motor opening, fishing around for the pivot points
and the actuator
you can see the output shaft isnt keyed at all - which leads to having to find the "parked" position via positive/negative jumpers when you install or remove them, then aligning that with the closed position of whichever flap youre working with, before actually plugging the thing back in.
so no problem, i did that after resetting the fallen flap, the actuator found its park position. however whenever i plug this one back in and key the car on, regardless of the position of the lower control switch, the actuator just spins counterclockwise.
im still doing more digging, but for now its parked in the shut position and unplugged, which will at least be an improvement over the huge air leak it was creating before
no kidding! i guess when most cars of its era had one or two vents controlled with a push/pull cable i can see how this probably all seemed like fairly fancy space age stuff
from what i hear the hvac is second on the list of infamous shadow systems after the brakes/suspension so im hoping getting all this to workable condition wont be too bad. so far its not as scary as i was expecting it to be..
while i was thinking of it, i just cruised through the flyingpspares catalog to see whats available... theyre typically a bit more expensive than albers, and dont list everything on their site, but it looks like the blower motor mounts are still available
and its a good thing the blower motors still work, they want 100GBP for a used motor, and 880GBP for a new one!
flyingspares also lists reconditioned heater actuators for 95-175GBP so that makes me think that its possible to take them apart. but ill bug albers about that when i get in touch with them
theyre also on ebay for 100-150 a piece so it shouldnt be too hard to find spares.
youre right the factory stuff is a lot thicker. i think they just did a bunch more layers of lacquer on the original woodwork.
but the pictures make it look more textured than it comes off in person. the vertical faces of all the door toppers, and the dash - i dont know the right term but the parts where they lay on the decorative grain - dont really have any texture so it looks "deep" there.
long overdue update, lots of pictures
freshly remounted blower motors that dont drag in the housings anymore. hooray
new fusible links. ive never made fuses before
a pack of RR approved diodes
spares for the fuse box, there was some concern that some of these were blown causing the run-on of the toe board flap actuator, but testing showed all the ones in the car were fine.
"while we're in there" a quick regrease of the wiper motor. the original stuff was pretty crusty. the wipers worked but were a bit slow. judging by the grease im not surprised!
after a really good walk through over the phone thanks to one of the RROC guys, i think i finally understand the hvac system now.
and he confirmed why these can run on (the toe board actuator on the other side of the car was jammed up due to the flap falling off its hinges) and why theyre noisy (the little brass bushings that the gears and main shaft ride on get noisy).
and he explained how to tear them down and refurb them (a few drops of 3-in-1 oil, and a couple dabs of white lithium grease)... so i thought id give it a go on all the ones that were easy to get to - which turned out to be all of them but the two buried inside the dash.
onto the carnage pictures!
by the time i got to the last couple i had the routine down to around 20 minutes from tear down to testing/resetting the park position.
and weve come full circle - both of these toe board flaps finally work now. they both park and shut like theyre supposed to.
and theres no dying squirrel noises from under the hood and dash when you move the hvac control knobs anymore. all around, pretty pleased with how it came out.
rereading now i realize i wasnt super clear in my description there but the two toe board actuators are on the same circuit. originally i didnt realize that there were even two actuators as the system diagrams for the early cars arent real clear on that. at any rate, when one of the two of them jams - as was the case on the other side - it causes the opposite one to never get the shut off signal. these fall off their hinges as they get older, which both had done.
it probably only needed resetting of the flaps themselves to be usable, but the actuators that had sat unused were the loudest, so a teardown probably didnt hurt. but the root of the problem was that the other side didnt move since it was jammed up by the fallen flap.
and it turns out that it going in only one direction is normal, but it needs to successfully park which it cant do when its getting shorted power from the other side since they need to move in sequence.
i also learned that these actuators are all interchangable both from position to position and from one model year to another - from the early days of the shadow through the late 80s/early 90s. good to know for any future parts needs! but i think most issues could be solved with a careful teardown if its not missing any pieces, since its really a pretty simple device once you get into it.
luckily all the repairs proved effective. its much more sealed up inside moving down the road - no more weird drafts!
didnt have any need for hot air the few times its been driven since, but the hot air definitely comes out like its supposed to and the blower motors are whisper quiet. road test success
i was hoping to have some time this last weekend to take some interior shots with it going down the road, but didnt have a chance. on the list for the summer though
i picked up some flash photo toys a few weeks ago. seemed worthwhile to give them a whirl on the RR... and this thread hasnt been updated with anything super interesting in a while
i didnt get the best shots of the evening, but ill see if i can get the much better ones posted in here as he gets them off his camera.
lots more practice needed with the flash - we also struggled to find a good backdrop - but overall fairly happy with the first time out.
just realized its been over 6 months since this was updated! hopefully no one bought any sailboats in the meantime?
after i moved to my new place we had a rug that was destined for goodwill, so i re-purposed it into a large RR entry mat in the garage
and in the meantime it was also in the co-owners (who doesnt post here much) wedding!
on the mechanical/maintenance front its likely going to need an alternator refresh, as its having a kind of hard time keeping up with the headlights and blower motor going at night.
and id like to get a new set of tires on it, and refresh the wheels while theyre apart. the tires on it have always been somewhat iffy, but now that its getting more regular use theyre making me more and more nervous.
luckily summit sells the exact same white wall mastercraft ones for a very reasonable price.
the hot side hvac works great now that all the little actuators were rebuilt, but an ac system rebuild of some sort is in the cards eventually (i need to finish my new shop first).
in case anyone was dying to know how the spare tire came out of a shadow:
that spare looked ooooold. and it was a dunlop with british sizing and "tubeless" written on it. perhaps original? at least very likely the original spec/model. it was also a hair smaller than the rest of the tires.
and id forgotten just how much of a pain it is to get one of these onto jackstands, so many delicate things underneath and no flat sturdy places to put a jack.
but, quite some time later, its in the air:
this was in my inbox this morning...
Don’t you want to be that guy who tows stuff with a 1980s Rolls-Royce station wagon? Of course you do.
a little more oddly proportioned than the shadow wagon, but probably big enough to live in inside
and air conditioned ... sadly the shop will be neither of those things.
kind of a long story with that space, added some hiccups to buying the house, but it used to be a second living room.
everything (mostly) went better than expected...
the wheels came out awesome. (most of) the tires look awesome.
also come to find out that the wheels previously hadnt been balanced.
3 out of 4 wheels on.
after taking the mold release off the whitewall on the 4th wheel, i noticed it looked like someone had chemically dissolved the whitewall in what looks to be a smeared hand shape - you can kind of see it at the top of the tire leaning against the wall in the 2nd pic.
called summit, they said call mastercraft. this should be fun!
after calling around and coming full circle back to summit customer support, they're sending out a tire for exchange.
happy to not have to put the car in the air again, bit of a bummer to have to re-mount/balance, but it could be worse!
summit really came through on the tire, they had a new one at my place within a couple days and had ups come by and pick up the old one a week later.
for their customer service folks
looking at the calendar and realized the Portland ABFM is coming up labor day weekend, thinking we'll take this to the show.
....i guess ill have to attend the 16volt-school-of-detailing sometime before then
luckily the fine folks are RR thought of how to fix this problem already!
speaking of which... its safely off the lawn for the time being.
quick cellphone pic of the new tires. the weather was awesome today.
had some stuck float bowl issues before firing it up today.
which reminded me i need to keep an eye on the flexible portion of the fuel line that comes up toward the engine, seems like it may be about due for a replacement soon.